Images of Medals of Honor from my collection

[Tim B]

Well, yea, it makes them counterfeit (by legal definition).

 

If we just look at the Lordship case, any medals produced under government contract for military use are, as you say, completely authentic. Medals produced outside of the govt. contract, that is, MOHs produced specifically to be sold out the back door for the collector's market, are counterfeit. They're not repros, fakes, knock offs, stolen govt. property, etc., etc., but they are counterfeit. They may have been produced on the same dies and with the same material as the govt. contract pieces, but there was no legal authority for Lordship to make them. Thus they're labeled by the Feds as counterfeit.

 

Yea, it's semantics, but that's the way they're classified.

 

 

 

Tom,

 

No argument there, completely agree on the items taken out of Lordship (out the backdoor). I was just saying that the items that were legally produced under an authorzied contract would be legit, despite getting into the system through surveyed equipment, etc. In the case of MoH, we know that happened just as it did for every other medal, just on a smaller scale.

 

If not, we would then have to reevaluate every single medal (decoration/service/campaign) and every single piece of insignia or gear that was never issued, as counterfeit and that wouldn't be correct.

 

Now, what the feds consider and how they apply their rules is a totally different matter!

 

Tim

[Tim B]

I would like to add a comment on Allan's question as well. Though slightly off topic pertaining to MoH specifically, it does have some connection and might be of value. Dave, my apologies for leading it astray and hopefully we can get some more photos of other MoH put up and the thread back on track.

 

Allan brought up an interesting point on vendors like George Studley producing items under the guise of legal government contracts. I recently commented in a couple different threads about fakes and authorized manufacturers that continue to produce items that would no longer be authorized for issue or wear. I have read some comments from one manufacturer (Ira Green) that lead me to believe they consider their license to produce anything totally legal as they had/have blanket authorization to produce under TIoH. I found it odd that any government contract would still exist for items that were now considered obsolete.

 

Then, I found this: http://law.justia.com/cfr/title32/32-3.1.1.1.6.html

 

So, in the case of smaller manufacturers, like Studley, did he have the same right to produce?

 

Tim

[johnnyrocket]

This is a very enlightening and informative thread. I like it when people observe and articulate on their observations.

 

My observation is that people usually do what they want to do...and this applies to...yes, even governments.

In other words the government can do anything they want to do—whenever they want to do it—regardless of laws, constitution, morals, heritage, or traditional standards...apparently they are a god unto themselves in cases like we see today.

 

People usually do what they want to do until they are stopped. In the very near future every thing that is not mandatory will be illegal.

 

I love medals, they represent the gallantry of the human heart that is brought about by the worst that is in man.

 

well I'm just thinking...

 

Johnny R.

[Allan H.]

Now we've opened up a whole new can of worms and although the topic is going off tangent, I do believe that the subject bears discussion, so I would like to dig a little deeper. Some months ago, a Canadian medals dealer was offering a CW MOH up for sale. THis one was undoubtedly "real" but the inscription had been buffed off. To further obliterate the inscription black paint was added to keep any remains of the inscription from being read. I'm not making the point that the guy was in Canada, but rather, I wonder where this one would fall in the eyes of the FBI? This one is, after all, real, but based on their definition of "not engraved" being conterfeit, has this original medal been transformed into a counterfeit? My next question is based on the fact that most of us have seen the reverse sides of the MOH and other decorations engraved with "For Display Only" does this mean that the medal is "legal?" Back in the day, many of these medals were provided to different organizations and even individuals by the government. Are such medals still candidates for confiscation?

 

I'm looking forward to answers/ opinions.

 

Allan

[445th Bomb Group]

Dave,

I was curious, and maybe I missed this somewhere in the post, but how did it come to the FBI's attention that you had these Medals of Honor in your possession? Many people in the United States possess/use items that are illegal under Federal law, but as long as they are discreet, in most cases their activities never come to the attention of the authorities. Its not like you were fraudulently claiming to be a Medal of Honor recipient, so how is it that an FBI agent came knocking on your door?

[TRR]

Allan,

 

From what I have learned about the "For Display Only" medals is that once they are no longer used for their intended display purpose, it is to be returned to the Army.

MOH-Display-Medal-Set-Criteria.pdf

[Dave]

Dave,

I was curious, and maybe I missed this somewhere in the post, but how did it come to the FBI's attention that you had these Medals of Honor in your possession? Many people in the United States possess/use items that are illegal under Federal law, but as long as they are discreet, in most cases their activities never come to the attention of the authorities. Its not like you were fraudulently claiming to be a Medal of Honor recipient, so how is it that an FBI agent came knocking on your door?

I posted some pictures of my collection on here and a "do gooder" reported me to the CMOHS who then went to the FBI about them. The do-gooder went as far as to threaten harm to me if I didn't turn them in. It was that guy who made me have a significant dislike for any MOH recipient worshiper. He was a disgusting, low, and small minded human being.

 

And that's what I think of him that I can post publicly.

 

Dave

[Dave]

And just to add to my comment above...I certainly have a massive amount of respect for any MOH recipient. They earned it and that's great. It's when people who assume the mantle of protecting these "heroes" to the detriment of the rights of their fellow countrymen...who these MOH recipients were protecting to earn their awards...that's where they go overboard.

[cull canyon]

In the early eighties there was a military collectors shop in Berkeley that had a posthumous Vietnam moh for sale. $2500.00 A lot of money then. I assume someone bought and it is in a private collection. Anyone else ever see a moh for sale?

[James39]

Gorgeous medals...makes me cringe to hear they were distroyed. I hate those "do gooders" who always get into others buisness. If they spent have their time actually trying to accomplish something on their own instead of trying to tear others down this world would be a better place.

[uniformcollector]

This person is claiming to have your army medal.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Army-Medal-of-Honor-/171047423431?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item27d3388dc7

 

 

Here is the description on ebay:

 

Hello,

I offer here a rarity. A U.S. Army Medal of Honor. I bought the medal long time ago.

The dealer told me that it was an original MoH (with a new Cravat). The pictures are an integral part of the offer. If you have questions I am happy to be available.

Returns will not be accepted. Shipping is from Germany.

This is NOT a german made MoH.

You can see this MoH in the following Link (US military forum):

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/174464-images-of-medals-of-honor-from-my-collection/

[Dave]

That's a bummer he's inferring that, but I don't know if it's just that he's not really good at English.

 

Unfortunately for him, that MOH cannot be the one at the start of the thread...you can see it behind the AF MOH in this photo...

[johnnyrocket]

That image is one of the worst things I've ever seen—worst than any horror movie scene, sad.

What kind of world do we live in that the Government forces people to do this. We won't stop the problem by destroying the medal itself...its self control, not Gov. control...OK, I digress.

 

Well, that's the world we live in.

 

Johnny R.

[Patriot]

Whatever came of the forum member who blew you in Dave?

[ajbUSWM]

That's a bummer he's inferring that, but I don't know if it's just that he's not really good at English.

 

Unfortunately for him, that MOH cannot be the one at the start of the thread...you can see it behind the AF MOH in this photo...

 

Destruction of historical artifacts ... we live in an insane world. Couldn't they have simply stamped "Copy for Display Only" and distributed them to small museums for free?

[wolfman]

That picture hurts me a lot

 

[roadrunner]

Hello

 

Although it comes from a different area, but what is right for one, could possibly help us further ?

 

"The gold certificate was used from 1863 to 1933 in the United States as a form of paper currency. Each certificate gave its holder title to its corresponding amount of gold coin. Therefore, this type of paper currency was intended to represent actual gold coinage. In 1933 the practice of redeeming these notes for gold coins was ended by the U.S. government and until 1964 it was actually illegal to possess these notes. (In 1964 these restrictions were lifted, primarily to allow collectors to own examples legally; however the issue technically converted to standard legal tender with no connection to gold.)"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_certificate

 

"... was ... illegal to posses ... restrictions were lifted, primarily to allow collectors to own examples legally ..."

 

Do I found the law that makes it possible to change the current practice ?

 

Michael

[ItemCo16527]

In the early eighties there was a military collectors shop in Berkeley that had a posthumous Vietnam moh for sale. $2500.00 A lot of money then. I assume someone bought and it is in a private collection. Anyone else ever see a moh for sale?

Back around 1991, at a hotel show run by a militaria dealer. I got to hold one of each type of Medal of Honor. I don't believe any were named, but that didn't matter to 13 year old me. I was pretty awestruck to be able to hold those medals.