Images of Medals of Honor from my collection

[Darrell]

 

 

I don't believe that the AF MoH ever had any hallmarks on the reverse. The Navy appears to have a bronze finish/coating as to the gold tone on the Army Air Force MoH. Also I have not seen any hallmarks on the Navy MoH either. I must add as an interesting note that the Navy MoH has the designers name (extremely small lettering) on the front of the medal. This name is never seen on Navy reproduction medals because of its difficulty to produce from cheap dies or castings.

 

Johnny R.

 

Lordship did hallmark the Navy and Air Force MoH during the 1980's. That hallmark was L.I.G.I. and on the reverse pendant at 6 o'clock. The AF version was in a marked 10/81 contract box of issue.

 

The earlier hallmarks I've seen on the AF MoH include:

 

- H.L.P. G.I. (reverse @ 6 o'clock)

 

- I've seen two identical examples, both from the 12/76 contract, one totally unmarked and the other marked HLP in very small letters on the pendant rim at 5 o"clock. Other than the hallmark and a very minute difference in final finsh, they were identical and of better details than the 1981 version.

 

Those are the only marks I've personally seen. I believe Medallic Art Company had the initial contract but, I've never seen one (at least hallmarked) by MAC.

 

Tim

 

 

Tim is correct.. here are the Army and AF I have in my collection. AF marked LIGI, the Army HLP NY

[trenchbuff]

Dave, Set me straight on the law regarding ownership of MOHs if you can. I thought I understood it to be that you could not buy or sell the medals, but that you could own them as long as you had them in your possession prior to the law?

[Dave]

Dave, Set me straight on the law regarding ownership of MOHs if you can. I thought I understood it to be that you could not buy or sell the medals, but that you could own them as long as you had them in your possession prior to the law?

 

That's what I thought too...until the FBI decided to take them away...

 

I was offered the opportunity to donate them to the CMOHS (just like the guy that had the ones in Washington state), but I didn't particularly care for a forced donation of the medals to a private organization. My lawyer went back and forth with them, as the FBI considered them "counterfeit", and in the end, it was either I turn them in or have them forcefully confiscated from me. Being an upstanding citizen and not being flush with the $20K or so to fight it in court, I chose the former route. However, in order to make certain they weren't going to be given to the CMOHS, the caveat requested by my lawyer was that they were to be destroyed and photos of their destruction supplied to us as proof that they were, indeed, destroyed. And that's what happened...

 

Dave

[trenchbuff]

 

That's what I thought too...until the FBI decided to take them away...

 

I was offered the opportunity to donate them to the CMOHS (just like the guy that had the ones in Washington state), but I didn't particularly care for a forced donation of the medals to a private organization. My lawyer went back and forth with them, as the FBI considered them "counterfeit", and in the end, it was either I turn them in or have them forcefully confiscated from me. Being an upstanding citizen and not being flush with the $20K or so to fight it in court, I chose the former route. However, in order to make certain they weren't going to be given to the CMOHS, the caveat requested by my lawyer was that they were to be destroyed and photos of their destruction supplied to us as proof that they were, indeed, destroyed. And that's what happened...

 

Dave

 

That is truly frightening! Seems our rights are only as good as what we can afford to defend in a court of law. Aren't you glad we spent so much time serving our Country and defending our constitution?

 

[roadrunner]

Hello

 

If I just think of it come to me in tears.

 

I can officially buy and sell all medals from every county.

I live in Germany. Since I was sixteen I'm collecting U.S. militaria. The first items I got from the neighbors, soldiers of the USAF - 81st TFW Det 3 Ahlhorn. The first two years my father was still named in the collector permission. Immediately after my eighteenth birthday, I requested a collector's permit in witch I stand alone. That was in 1985. Thus 30 years collecting activities are behind me.

I can buy all with this collector permission directly from the manufacturer, if necessary, the special stage to the Federal Cross of Merit, which were only given to Adenauer and Kohl.

Who can still remember the Auction catalogs from Manions 20 years ago? There were 3-5 MOHs in each auction and the price was a few hundred dollars. I had approximately 20-25 MOHs in my entire career. At that time everything was still analog, and there was no internet. I bought this at Manions and sell or trade to collectors.

A disgrace to the American legal system.

It is simply not begriffsn. The collector preserve history!

Here, a law was created without considering the consequences. As a result, it is much sold abroad.

I hate it, that Germany is a platform to sell copies of the MOH, made in Spain or shipped direct from Hong Kong.

 

HAVE A NICE DAY

Michael

[COOKIEMAN]

I guess I would ask, if it isn't too painful or personal to tell, under what circumstances did the FBI confiscate your medals? What was their justification? If you had obtained them before the ban, how could they take them?

[dskjl]

I guess I would ask, if it isn't too painful or personal to tell, under what circumstances did the FBI confiscate your medals? What was their justification? If you had obtained them before the ban, how could they take them?

I too am curious, it may be off topic a bit but I hear stories about pre ban ownership and wonder how one might establish that status and if you are willing to share your story on how you and your medals parted ways it's certainly has my interest peaked.

 

Respectfully,

[doyler]

Dave

 

Thanks for posting the high quality pictures for comparision and refferance.

[cull canyon]

I thought it was only illegal to buy or sell but not to possess. If you had them before the ban the you did not break the law. IMHO

[tom2001]

Dave can probably expand on this further, but my understanding of law enforcement's flawed logic is:

 

1) Back door MOH's that came from Lordship Industries are considered stolen government property

2) The Lordship Industries back-door MOHs left the factory without the company hallmark.

3) Therefore any un-hallmarked MOH is a back door medal, no matter what firm made it, or when.

[roadrunner]

Hello

Here is a MOH with Lordship Industries hallmark, case and carton with label.

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Medal-of-honor-US-AF-11-89-Lordship-Industries-KEINE-KOPIE-/251267912309?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27%26meid%3D7304512569131377233%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D1011%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D251267912309%26#ht_500wt_922

 

HAVE A NICE DAY

Michael

[Dave]

I thought it was only illegal to buy or sell but not to possess. If you had them before the ban the you did not break the law. IMHO

 

Tom's pretty much spot on. As it was explained to me, here's how it works:

 

1. The government orders # number of MOHs from the supplier

2. Those MOHs are delivered

3. MOHs are controlled items, meaning that they are signed for, etc., whenever they leave storage

4. Therefore, the only way to obtain a MOH is to either earn one or get it from an actual recipient, as they are the only ones entitled to them.

5. With that said, if you have an MOH that did not come from an actual recipient (or their family, etc.) it is considered either: a. property stolen from the US government, as they are controlled items, or, most likely, sold out the "back door" of the manufacturer

6. Since the government only contracts for a specific number of MOHs and since that exact number of MOHs are delivered to the government, any other MOHs are there therefore "back door" counterfeits, or stolen. Either way, it's illegal to own counterfeit US government items as well as stolen property, so therefore the person in possession of the MOHs is the one liable.

 

This applies to all types and versions of the MOH, from the Civil War to present.

 

Dave

[johnnyrocket]

I think Dave has summed this up correctly and succinctly. Also the letter of the law states "ALL" military medals falls under this definition. This portion of the law (items that are not related to the MoH) is "NOT" enforced by the federal government.

 

Johnny R.

[roadrunner]

Hello

Sorry for my bad english but I try to ask somethink.

 

If a MOH ( Dave I think, yours was without hallmark ) has not hallmark, how they can say it's property of the US government ?

It could be a copy from everywhere like the copies from Hong Kong.

 

It's forbidden to make copies of the MOH. That's American law. What is with international law. Is there a worldwide copyright ?

I have never seen a MOH with "©".

 

Why, the US government do nothing against the hundreds of copies made and sold in different countries ?

 

HAVE A NICE DAY

Michael

[roadrunner]

Here are the pictures from the ebay auction

[roadrunner]

next

[Tim B]

Dave can probably expand on this further, but my understanding of law enforcement's flawed logic is:

 

1) Back door MOH's that came from Lordship Industries are considered stolen government property

2) The Lordship Industries back-door MOHs left the factory without the company hallmark.

3) Therefore any un-hallmarked MOH is a back door medal, no matter what firm made it, or when.

 

 

Hi Tom,

 

I don't totally agree with the above understanding and think that current mindset (collector folklore if you will) came into being as frankly, not a lot of us have any examples to compare or are willing to discuss and we only assume the FBI really knows what is "counterfeit" or not. IMO, they don't and only assume all without provenance are "counterfeit".

 

Here's why I think this:

 

First, not all MoH are hallmarked. As I pointed out earlier, I have seen original Lordship examples still wrapped in the company marked issued boxes and some were marked while others were not and these were in the same contract. I have also read that the first MoH were produced by Medallic Art Company but have no ideas on quantities or if they produced all three versions. I have never seen any with an MAC hallmark.

 

I do not believe most of these FBI investigators would honestly know what or where to look for a hallmark either, or even care. To me, they look to see if it's engraved with a name, then try to ascertain if the medal is the original to a person actually authorized this award. If not = counterfeit. If so, how did you get it?

 

If the medal was presented, it surely must have been engraved, so if no engraving = counterfeit. If the medal has a name on it but that person is not on any MoH list = counterfeit.

 

Now, what about the case where an actual recipient donates or give his medal (or a replacement medal) away to someone..?? I don't know what they would do but, I would bet if you don't have any paperwork stating this person gave it to you, you're not going to keep it.

 

Second, ALL the so-called Lordship backdoor specials were manufactured in the early to mid-90's, all of them. My understanding after reading several articles about LI losing their goverment contract, etc., tell me around 1994/95 a couple of sons got caught selling these on the open market and LI lost their government license to produce about year later after fighting in court. So, any MoH manufactured prior to the 1990's surely could not be considered counterfeit by production alone and if you didn't know the variations in hallmarks, you would not be able to tell exactly when the item was manufactured.

 

Lastly, I think where the government gets you is simply by the fact you have one in your possession and didn't earn it. They feel these medals were produced under a government license and paid for with government funds. If you were not personally awarded it, then you shouldn't have it, period. However, they forget or didn't consider all the legit awards out there (including DSC, Navy Cross, etc.) that were old stock, never used and these items got surveyed when bases closed. A lot of these awards being offered online and in shows came from surplus items that simply got surveyed out of the system through DRMO's. I know some guys that claimed seeing boxes of these (all three versions) getting legs through supply personnel as bases shut down in the late 80's to 90's.

 

In the end, I would not use the blanket term of "counterfeit" for anything other than the ones sold by these two in Lordship in the 1990's. I think that wrong IMHO. I think when the FBI says unmarked, they are really referring to the medals that are not engraved to anyone.

 

Tim

 

[tom2001]

Tim, your logic is impeccable, and I agree with you 100%.

 

Unfortunately, the FBI's logic is not so impeccable. They are using current regulations and applying them to items that were manufactured anywhere from 50 to 150 years ago (before medals were hallmarked and before they were controlled items). I've seen enough Army Type IV and V MOHs that are unnamed, and unhallmarked to know that things were a lot looser 50+ years ago, whether we're talking about duplicate wearer's copies, display copies, etc.

 

The FBI can't prove that a crime was committed 50 years ago, so they now leave it up to the medal owner to prove that a crime wasn't committed!! And if you're willing to spend 5 figures in legal fees you'll probably win in court.

 

A brief note about "counterfeit." It has a specific legal definition here-- i.e., produced without legal authority. As an example, let's say the Federal Reserve orders up 100,000 new hundred dollar bills. The Bureau of Printing prints them up, but the pressman runs a few extra sheets through the press, and pockets them. Those $100 bills are by legal definition counterfeit.

 

 

 

Dave can probably expand on this further, but my understanding of law enforcement's flawed logic is:

 

1) Back door MOH's that came from Lordship Industries are considered stolen government property

2) The Lordship Industries back-door MOHs left the factory without the company hallmark.

3) Therefore any un-hallmarked MOH is a back door medal, no matter what firm made it, or when.

 

 

Hi Tom,

 

I don't totally agree with the above understanding and think that current mindset (collector folklore if you will) came into being as frankly, not a lot of us have any examples to compare or are willing to discuss and we only assume the FBI really knows what is "counterfeit" or not. IMO, they don't and only assume all without provenance are "counterfeit".

 

Here's why I think this:

 

First, not all MoH are hallmarked. As I pointed out earlier, I have seen original Lordship examples still wrapped in the company marked issued boxes and some were marked while others were not and these were in the same contract. I have also read that the first MoH were produced by Medallic Art Company but have no ideas on quantities or if they produced all three versions. I have never seen any with an MAC hallmark.

 

I do not believe most of these FBI investigators would honestly know what or where to look for a hallmark either, or even care. To me, they look to see if it's engraved with a name, then try to ascertain if the medal is the original to a person actually authorized this award. If not = counterfeit. If so, how did you get it?

 

If the medal was presented, it surely must have been engraved, so if no engraving = counterfeit. If the medal has a name on it but that person is not on any MoH list = counterfeit.

 

Now, what about the case where an actual recipient donates or give his medal (or a replacement medal) away to someone..?? I don't know what they would do but, I would bet if you don't have any paperwork stating this person gave it to you, you're not going to keep it.

 

Second, ALL the so-called Lordship backdoor specials were manufactured in the early to mid-90's, all of them. My understanding after reading several articles about LI losing their goverment contract, etc., tell me around 1994/95 a couple of sons got caught selling these on the open market and LI lost their government license to produce about year later after fighting in court. So, any MoH manufactured prior to the 1990's surely could not be considered counterfeit by production alone and if you didn't know the variations in hallmarks, you would not be able to tell exactly when the item was manufactured.

 

Lastly, I think where the government gets you is simply by the fact you have one in your possession and didn't earn it. They feel these medals were produced under a government license and paid for with government funds. If you were not personally awarded it, then you shouldn't have it, period. However, they forget or didn't consider all the legit awards out there (including DSC, Navy Cross, etc.) that were old stock, never used and these items got surveyed when bases closed. A lot of these awards being offered online and in shows came from surplus items that simply got surveyed out of the system through DRMO's. I know some guys that claimed seeing boxes of these (all three versions) getting legs through supply personnel as bases shut down in the late 80's to 90's.

 

In the end, I would not use the blanket term of "counterfeit" for anything other than the ones sold by these two in Lordship in the 1990's. I think that wrong IMHO. I think when the FBI says unmarked, they are really referring to the medals that are not engraved to anyone.

 

Tim

 

 

 

[Tim B]

Hi Tom,

 

Oh, no doubt the FBI are going to make it hard for anyone to own one of these unless they have something in writing saying they are entitiled to have it, even then, I imagine all the "i" better be dotted and the "t" crossed! I believe Dave's Navy MoH was a WW2 version and as normal, unmarked. They didn't care and applied the current rules straight across the board regardless that it was clearly manufactured prior to any Lordship fiasco. Clearly, the pattern of Navy MoH is different between the WW2 and 1990's version.

 

That's my point here, they are not looking for hallmarks, they are looking for medals with engraving and if not....

 

Not sure exactly what you were trying to say in the last paragraph on counterfeits. If any awards were produced, legally through authorized government contracts and still not issued, that doesn't make them counterfeit. The FBI may open their term to include any that were not formally awarded but IMO, they were legitimately produced for the military's use and completely authentic.

 

Tim

[tom2001]

Well, yea, it makes them counterfeit (by legal definition).

 

If we just look at the Lordship case, any medals produced under government contract for military use are, as you say, completely authentic. Medals produced outside of the govt. contract, that is, MOHs produced specifically to be sold out the back door for the collector's market, are counterfeit. They're not repros, fakes, knock offs, stolen govt. property, etc., etc., but they are counterfeit. They may have been produced on the same dies and with the same material as the govt. contract pieces, but there was no legal authority for Lordship to make them. Thus they're labeled by the Feds as counterfeit.

 

Yea, it's semantics, but that's the way they're classified.

 

 

Not sure exactly what you were trying to say in the last paragraph on counterfeits. If any awards were produced, legally through authorized government contracts and still not issued, that doesn't make them counterfeit. The FBI may open their term to include any that were not formally awarded but IMO, they were legitimately produced for the military's use and completely authentic.

 

 

[Allan H.]

Well, yea, it makes them counterfeit (by legal definition).

 

If we just look at the Lordship case, any medals produced under government contract for military use are, as you say, completely authentic. Medals produced outside of the govt. contract, that is, MOHs produced specifically to be sold out the back door for the collector's market, are counterfeit. They're not repros, fakes, knock offs, stolen govt. property, etc., etc., but they are counterfeit. They may have been produced on the same dies and with the same material as the govt. contract pieces, but there was no legal authority for Lordship to make them. Thus they're labeled by the Feds as counterfeit.

 

Yea, it's semantics, but that's the way they're classified.

 

 

I've been wanting to ask this question for quite a while, so will finally do so here-

George Studley was a prolific dealer in medals and decorations from the turn of the century on through the 1940’s, and according to his advertisements, he had permission from the US Government to provide replacement medals and decorations to veterans through his business. Studley advertised in veterans’ magazines and military unit newspapers for many, many years. Now old George had just about every medal imaginable minted including the Medal of Honor. I have seen his handiwork on many occasions, to include some beautifully engraved examples of the MOH. So, my question is this- is this vein of medal a counterfeit and subject to seizure by the FBI, KGB, CIA, Mossad etc? Is the medal a legitimate copy as approved by the US government when it was struck? Finally, minting of the Medal of Honor was not always as tightly controlled as it is today. What about examples of the MOH that clearly pre-date the HLP contracts? How can the enforcement activity of the US Government claim that (for example) a Civil War MOH without inscription is counterfeit?

 

Allan

[Dave]

What about examples of the MOH that clearly pre-date the HLP contracts? How can the enforcement activity of the US Government claim that (for example) a Civil War MOH without inscription is counterfeit?

 

Allan

 

 

I posed that question to my delightful FBI agent and was told that ALL of them...no matter the year of production or type...would be considered "counterfeit".

 

But welcome to a bureaucratic black and white: "If it applies today, it applied yesterday and to every other one in the past because the laws have always been the same..." or some other stupidity.

 

Just sayin'.......

 

[tom2001]

How can the enforcement activity of the US Government claim that (for example) a Civil War MOH without inscription is counterfeit?

 

Allan

 

 

Because they are applying 2013 regulations to 1860s items. Today, all medals purchased by the government must be hallmarked (usually on the brooch, but in the case of the MOH, on the planchet), and, in the case of MOHs, they're controlled items.

 

So obviously, any unhallmarked and unnamed Tiffany, Dieges and Clust, or any other pre-1960 made MOH must be either counterfeit or stolen, at least according to the Feds.

 

Wanna prove them wrong? Gather up about 10Gs for legal fees, dig through the Archives to get copies of contracts and regulations, line up your expert witnesses, and wait for the Feds to come knocking because they claim your 1920s Tiffany Cross is stolen.

[dskjl]

So, it sounds like the only safe course is one of avoidance. I have a Navy attack sub Capt. buddy of mine who once told me he never got in a fight unless he knew with certainty he was going win. Losing was not an option in his orders and the consequences of losing were unacceptable.

Seems this MOH medal ownership deal may be a fight best avoided.

[Tim B]

 

So, it sounds like the only safe course is one of avoidance.

 

Yes, unfortunately that is the case unless you live outside the U.S. It's just not worth the hassles or expense to argue the point legally and certainly not worth having the feds come and visit you and searching your home. Personally, considering how expensive these would be today if everyone could collect them and beyond my means, I can live with that. I do feel for those that could though.

 

Unfortunately, for me anyway, the hobby suffers as too few are willing to even discuss them and that's when we can't really learn the different variations in dies and hallmarks, something I enjoy learning about.

 

Tim