subsystem4 Posted March 23, 2013 Share #1 Posted March 23, 2013 I haven't been able to find the answer to this question online or in my books, or at least I'm not sure i completely understand what I'm reading. APAs had a certain number of landing craft on board to land troops on invasion beaches. Are the sailors that man these landing craft part of the the APA's crew and operate the landing craft as a secondary function or are the crews of these landing craft specialized distinct separate units that only man the landing craft and are not part of the APA crew? Or a combination of the two? I have found muster rolls for LSTs LSMs, LCMs, LCIs, LCTs, etc. I have read about groups of Amphibious craft called flotillas. Am I correct in my conclusion that these flotillas are independent units assigned to transports etc as operational needs dictate? The reason I ask is that a large number of these US Navy craft were maned by US Coast Guard crews because of their shallow water/small boat handling skills. I am assuming that not all the muster rolls for these small craft have survived since WWII and therefore are not available online. In addition to the unavailability of records for USCG ships, cutters, and other craft, I'm guessing this is why I have a hard time finding USCG personnel who's patches and rates seem to indicate service in landing ships and craft. If more of these records were available maybe I could ID more of my USCG uniforms. Just a theory. If anybody has any info, insights, or opinions on this topic I would be very happy to hear them. Thanks -Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topdcnut Posted March 24, 2013 Share #2 Posted March 24, 2013 This may always be a tough one. I do not think that USCG was used for special skills (ie shallow draft) more of the fact that they as a service could man up ships the same as the Navy. What I have seen on uniforms is the same mix of shipboard rates with the amphib mark and rates that could could also man landing craft. I believe that the craft are part of a ships unit unlike aviation units and carriers and to call them a flotilla would not make them a seperate unit from the ship. You won't see the distinction in the uniform because the rates found on the craft will be the same as the guys onboard the ship tending the boats and guns, I have a white jumper from a USCG S1cl gunners mate, fact is he could have manned a craft or a gun on the ship only he knows and he unfortunatly is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyCanteen Posted March 24, 2013 Share #3 Posted March 24, 2013 I am assuming that not all the muster rolls for these small craft have survived since WWII and therefore are not available online. In addition to the unavailability of records for USCG ships, cutters, and other craft, I'm guessing this is why I have a hard time finding USCG personnel who's patches and rates seem to indicate service in landing ships and craft. If more of these records were available maybe I could ID more of my USCG uniforms. Just a theory. Have you tried sending off to the NPRC? As for muster rolls, I would not be so quick to dismiss their existence, the simple fact is that pay sites may not find them interesting enough to digitize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted March 24, 2013 Share #4 Posted March 24, 2013 Flotillas, in particular LSM's/LCM's, are groups of ships controlled by a Flotilla commander who reported to the group commander. The boat crews were part of the ships' complement although many of them went through the landing craft service schools in Coronado & Oceanside (Pacific theater) or Norfolk for the MTO/ETO. The boat engineers went to diesel mechanics school and all of them were trained in basic seamanship and signaling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigsaye Posted March 24, 2013 Share #5 Posted March 24, 2013 What Salvage said! Remember that every one assigned to any ambhibious unit wore the Amphib Forces patch. As has been stated, Coasties crewed ambhib ships because they could. The Navy does the smae small craft, close in work as the CG, just different missions. the boats assigned to APAs & AKAs Were integeral to the ship, their crews, ships company. The crews were Second Division, part of Deck Depatment. Their main function was maintenance of the boats, but also stood ships watches just like other Deck Dept. Sailors There were seperate organizations of amphibious assault craft. These tended to have specialized missions, and were assigned to other Amphibious ships for transport. their crews were not ships company, but passengers tkaing care of their boats. So, basically, the answer to your question is both yes and no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsystem4 Posted March 24, 2013 Author Share #6 Posted March 24, 2013 Thanks everybody. I kinda figured it was a little of column A and a little of column B. I did read in one of my books that Coasties were assigned to landing craft because of there shallow water skills so I'm not pulling that out of my a$$ but if you guys say that's bull I will take your word on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigsaye Posted March 24, 2013 Share #7 Posted March 24, 2013 Thanks everybody. I kinda figured it was a little of column A and a little of column B. I did read in one of my books that Coasties were assigned to landing craft because of there shallow water skills so I'm not pulling that out of my a$$ but if you guys say that's bull I will take your word on it. Not saying it's bull. Many things are published by my beloved Navy that are simply incorrect. Not malicisously, just because an assignment is made to a juornalist to crank something out and they need somethig that sounds plausible. In the late '80s, they were still saying the thirteen buttons on the dress blue trousers were for the original thirteen colonies. The black neckerchief was a sign of mourning for Nelson (really? I those days, he was still a bad guy to us). They published a paper in the mid seventies that said the first time USN Sailors got shoes was in the 1871 regs (they are in the 1820 regs). If I had never been in the Navy and never served on 'amphibs, that statement about the CG would have sounded plausible to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyCanteen Posted March 24, 2013 Share #8 Posted March 24, 2013 I completely agree with what Steve & Salvage Sailor have added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsystem4 Posted March 25, 2013 Author Share #9 Posted March 25, 2013 I'm glad you guys are here and help clear up these things for us novice collectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29navy Posted March 25, 2013 Share #10 Posted March 25, 2013 Concurr with all. But also keep in mind, that as the Coast Guard rampped up personnel during the war and were assigned to amphibs or transports, the Coastie sailors had about as much experience as the USN sailors. They all learned their boat driving skills at the same places. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyCanteen Posted March 25, 2013 Share #11 Posted March 25, 2013 Concurr with all. But also keep in mind, that as the Coast Guard rampped up personnel during the war and were assigned to amphibs or transports, the Coastie sailors had about as much experience as the USN sailors. Charlie Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsystem4 Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share #12 Posted March 26, 2013 Concurr with all. But also keep in mind, that as the Coast Guard rampped up personnel during the war and were assigned to amphibs or transports, the Coastie sailors had about as much experience as the USN sailors. They all learned their boat driving skills at the same places. Charlie Very good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris1917 Posted March 28, 2013 Share #13 Posted March 28, 2013 My Dad was a US Navy coxswain on an LCVP. His ship was APA170. He always referred to being in the "Boat Division" and said they did stand watches. His battle station was his boat or in the sick bay with the surgeon when not on the boat. He said the boat crews spent a lot of tme doing duty as Shore patrol when in port but also were heavily used to transport people and material both ship to ship and ship to shore. His favorite duty, along with another coxswain, was driving the Captain's gig. Regarding the USCG, I am currently reading "D Days in the Pacific" by Ken Wiley. It is a pretty good read and I think tells the story of the boat crews and their training and combat experinces pretty well. One of the things mentioned early in the book is the Coast Guard recruiters stressing the need for small boat operators and that the USCG's experience made it perfect for the amphibious mission. Hope this all helps a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GITom1944 Posted April 10, 2013 Share #14 Posted April 10, 2013 I have a book entitled, "The U.S. Coast Guard in World War II" by Malcolm Willoughby. For the record, I have not read it all, so I can't report all references to CG manned landing craft, but here's a few bits of info: There were a number of entirely Coast Guard manned transports & landing ships/craft during WW2. During the Normandy operation, for example, "(t)here were 97 vessels manned by the Coast Guard" (of which 60 were rescue cutters). These included the attack transports Samuel Chase (APA-26), the Joseph T. Dickman (APA-13), and the Bayfield (APA-33). Aboard the Charles Carroll (APA-28) and Barnett (APA-5), "a few Coast Guardsman served with Navy Crews" - I don't see specific references to their duties in the book. There were also ten Coast Guard manned LST's (four of which were assigned to the British & operated with the British task forces) and 24 LCI's. LSTs carried several LCVPs and these were sometimes used to supplement the LCVP's of the attack transports to land Army troops. One source for additional information would be the U.S. Coast Guard Museum at the Coast Guard Academy in New London, CT http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg092/museum/. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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