Vanguard post WWII Air Force WIng dies

[5thwingmarty]

Did Vanguard create their own dies to start making Air Force wings after WWII, or did they buy other companies dies to start using? A friend of mine thinks they got some dies from Meyer but I don't know if all the Vanguard wings were made with old Meyer wing dies.

 

Anyone have any knowledge on this?

 

Marty

[pfrost]

Not NS Meyer's dies, but AMICO dies.

[B-17Guy]

Actually, Gemsco got the old Amico wing dies.

That is evidenced by the Gemsco over-stamp on some Amico wings.

As for Vanguard, I can't say who made their dies.

Vanguard told me they had two companies supplying Navy wings in WWII.

The post WWII USAF wings are similar to the third pattern LGB, but I don't

know if we'll ever know who made them.

 

Best, John

[pfrost]

Opps, your right. Got my wires crossed.

 

IIRC, Vanguard was a retail company. They supplied all sorts of uniform supplies and what nots. I suspect that they didn't actually make many of their items, but rather had it supplied wholesale from other companies.

 

P

[5thwingmarty]

I emailed Vanguard and asked if they had any information or records on their AAF / AF wings. Here is the reply I received:

 

"Vanguard started making all Badges for the army in 1943. There was no Air Force until 1947. Prior to that it was the Army Air Force. Our best guess is that we started using the "Vanguard NY" stamp around 1952."

 

I asked a follow-up question but they had no more info to offer. So, this at least implies they were selling Air Force wings during WWII.

 

If anyone has any Vanguard hallmarked wings, could you post some pictures here (fronts and backs)? It would be nice to see whether there is a consistancy of designs that might be useful to identify their unhallmarked wings.

 

Marty

[71wysocki]

Senior Pilot

[71wysocki]

hallmark

[71wysocki]

Command Pilot

[71wysocki]

Hallmark

[71wysocki]

Crew Member

[71wysocki]

hallmark

[71wysocki]

Bombardier

[71wysocki]

hallmark

[B-17Guy]

The 1952 date for the VANGUARD, NY hallmark holds with the statement that Vanguard didn't start making Air Force wings till the 1950's,

as I mentioned in another thread.

 

As for the wing with the small block letters and 1V, I have that hallmark, on a Navy wing without the 1V and thought

it was post WWII to the alpha numeric begining. That wing, with the small block letters and the 1V maybe gives

evidence of that.

 

As an fyi, I have seen dealers file the 1V off of that same style wing and try to pass it off as a WWII wing, with obvious file marks.

 

As for the V with eagle, again, that didn't appear till 1956.

Attached below is the trademark filing for that hallmark.

 

Has anyone, ever seen a authentic WWII aviation uniform (not a dealer put-together) with a Vanguard USAAF wing on it?

 

I havn't.

 

I agree with Patrick that the entire alpha numeric system probably started sometime in the late 1950's to early 1960's (till I see something in gov't print).

LOL, I also agree with "The Doctor" that I don't care too much about post WWII wings, but they are an interesting subject!

Lastly, I agree that it is almost impossible to date wings exactly. The best we can do is a range, ie: 20's, 30's, early WWII, late WWII, post WWII-KW, etc

If a company had a short life, like Amico, then it becomes a bit easier.

 

By the way, here is a link to a thread from long ago where we touched on this subject a bit.

 

http://www.usmilitar...ing#entry883375

 

Best, John

[pfrost]

It is possible that they made (or at least sold) USAAF wings during WWII, but just didn't hallmark them. Again, as I recall, Vanguard was a retail company. They would basically supply all the uniform needs for the service men. That doesn't mean that they actually manufactured insignia in some Vanguard-owned shop. Like Morrie Luxenberg, I would expect that they simply would buy what they needed from a wholesale vendor to meet the orders they had. They didn't need to have their own line of products. You see that all the time. For example, I have a wing box from a local Southern California department store that has a nice NS Meyer wing in it--I believe that likely they just bought a batch of wings from NS Meyer and put their own logo on the box.

 

You do see WWII vintage groupings with USN wings that are hallmarked Vanguard. Also, I seem to recall seeing WWII Army and AAF vintage patches in Vanguard marked packages. Frankly, it just may have been cheaper for them to subcontract out and buy wings from another company and they never got around to putting their hallmark on them. I guess the question could be "made by" or "sold by" for Vanguard.

 

Patrick

[teufelhunde.ret]

The 1952 date for the VANGUARD, NY hallmark holds with the statement that Vanguard didn't start making Air Force wings till the 1950's,

as I mentioned in another thread.

 

As for the wing with the small block letters and 1V, I have that hallmark, on a Navy wing without the 1V and thought

it was post WWII to the alpha numeric begining. That wing, with the small block letters and the 1V maybe gives

evidence of that.

 

As an fyi, I have seen dealers file the 1V off of that same style wing and try to pass it off as a WWII wing, with obvious file marks.

 

As for the V with eagle, again, that didn't appear till 1956.

Attached below is the trademark filing for that hallmark.

 

Has anyone, ever seen a authentic WWII aviation uniform (not a dealer put-together) with a Vanguard USAAF wing on it?

 

I havn't.

 

I agree with Patrick that the entire alpha numeric system probably started sometime in the late 1950's to early 1960's (till I see something in gov't print).

LOL, I also agree with "The Doctor" that I don't care too much about post WWII wings, but they are an interesting subject!

Lastly, I agree that it is almost impossible to date wings exactly. The best we can do is a range, ie: 20's, 30's, early WWII, late WWII, post WWII-KW, etc

If a company had a short life, like Amico, then it becomes a bit easier.

 

By the way, here is a link to a thread from long ago where we touched on this subject a bit.

 

http://www.usmilitar...ing#entry883375

 

Best, John

Interesting Vangard image/info, where did it come from? Thx....

[B-17Guy]

That information came from the Gov't Trademark web-site.

 

Patrick, I agree about the Navy wings on WWII uniforms, seen many.

I just have never seen any Vanguard wings on any biograpical Army uniforms from WWII.

 

All great info and thoughts

 

Best, John

[5thwingmarty]

Ok, here is one of the wings that prompted me to start this thread. It is clearly stamped STERLING but there is no evidence of a VANGUARD stamp. The back of the wing also looks like it has a shellaque coating on it. I scraped a tiny bit away with my thumbnail and it looks like normal sterling underneath. I have no provenance for the wing.

 

This is now the third Bombardier wing in this pattern that I have seen. The first one I found is on the ww2wings.com site. That one is not stamped as either STERLING or VANGUARD N.Y. 1V and is listed as being part of the Cliff Presley. Does anyone klnow him or if he contributes to this site?

 

I am expecting a gunner wing in this pattern in a day or two. I don't think it is stamped either STERLING or VANGUARD but I will post photos when it arrives.

 

Marty

[5thwingmarty]

And here is the Aerial Gunner wing. Again, no hallmark and not stamped STERLING either (except for one clutch). This one looks more sterling than the one actually stamped sterling.

[bschwartz]

I'll just leave this here. Found it tonight when looking for something else. Should add a little fuel to that Gemsco/Amico argument. Another player to the game.

 

[5thwingmarty]

Interesting. Is that a box lid? The picture appears so big on this site it looks like a book cover. If it is a lid and you have the item it held can you post a photo of it as well?

 

Marty

[bschwartz]

Yep, it's a box lid. The photo should size down automatically for you. I got the box years ago but it was just an empty box. I thought it was interesting and it was like 25 cents so worth picking up. I can see where there was a label on the side indicating what came in the box but that label is long gone. A wing would easily fit in the box. Too small for a medal. Don't have it in front of me so I can't give you the actual dimensions.

[B-17Guy]

Would hold a wing in this way.

I have always thought this wing to be post WWII-KW period.

This wing, with the raised script hallmark,

is very plentiful in non-sterling (on ebay and from dealers), however I rarely see it in sterling, as this one.

 

Best, John

[B-17Guy]

Back showing hallmark

[donaldnol]

On 3/13/2013 at 1:58 PM, 5thwingmarty said:

Ok, here is one of the wings that prompted me to start this thread. It is clearly stamped STERLING but there is no evidence of a VANGUARD stamp. The back of the wing also looks like it has a shellaque coating on it. I scraped a tiny bit away with my thumbnail and it looks like normal sterling underneath. I have no provenance for the wing.

 

This is now the third Bombardier wing in this pattern that I have seen. The first one I found is on the ww2wings.com site. That one is not stamped as either STERLING or VANGUARD N.Y. 1V and is listed as being part of the Cliff Presley. Does anyone klnow him or if he contributes to this site?

 

I am expecting a gunner wing in this pattern in a day or two. I don't think it is stamped either STERLING or VANGUARD but I will post photos when it arrives.

 

Marty

I have the same wing three circle ring bombardier but mine is close to mint cond. with a smaller sterling stamp incuse in.