Please help! Any experts with M1A1 Carbine?

[rayg]

Well it could be an issue because if it is not a post war rebuild and is original, it's worth more money.

 

I can't read the serial number on the one photo that shows it but it looks like it is a long one and could be a later number and if so, it's possibly that the adjust sight was factory installed and if a real late number maybe even the bayonet lug also as I think the very late dated ones did receive the lug. So it's possibly that the gun may be still period. Just some thoughts, Anyway, we'll find out the serial number when you get it,

 

Also I just noticed that the carbine in the first photo that is shown out of the stock is a different carbine then the following carbine as it does not have the bayonet lug on it. Ray

[ww2relichunter]

Very nice buy that is expensive but they are expensive theese days

[hink441]

That should read that all the carbines which later had the flip sight replaced with the adj sight, you had trouble reading the serial numbers as the rear of the sight covered much of the number and you had to look under the sight to read the number.

 

On my carbines, the adjustable sight covers the manufacturer's name. The serial number is usually visible.

[rayg]

Yes you're right, I am away from my carbines and now that you mention it, I do recall it's the makers name that is covered not the serial number, sorry, Ray

[mpguy80/08]

Another thing to consider about Original M1A1's... the Serial number ranges are going to vary... For example, there were 4300 produced in total in 1942, all manufactured in november and december of that year. Indicating an earliest SN of 24700 to a latest SN of 104700. 66648 were manufactured in 1943, ranging from sn 104700 to 999999, and 2712520 to 2995100. 69,052 were produced in 1944, ranging from sn 2995100 to 3212500 and 4879500 to 5546900. No new M1A1's were known to have been produced in 1945.

 

there were a total of approximately 140,000 M1A1's made by Inland from 1942 through 1944, leaving a serial number range from 24700 to 5546900, set into specific Inland blocks of serial numbers shown above. Keep in mind also that there was no set "M1A1" block either... as the receivers came down the assembly line they had equal chance of being assembled as an M1 or M1A1. I do have one notation of test carbine serial numbers out of WarBaby showing that ten M1A1 rifles were pulled from production batches for quality control and interchangeability testing. The rifles pulled for this November 4th 1942 test report are noted in the M1A1 section of Warbaby as SNs: 36356, 43097, 43460, 44405, 45296, 49541, 51220, 53054, 54032, and 54165. There is yet another interchangeability test from "lot FA" showing two rifles, SNs 42091 and 45578.

 

As far as I know, according to all the references I have, these are the only twelve Serial numbers listed anywhere that denote KNOWN original M1A1 Serial numbers.

 

Also, keep in mind that in late 1944 the ordnance dept initiated their rebuild program as well, in which the carbines were taken down to their component parts which were placed into bins or barrels containing similar parts. As a part was checked for serviceability, the rifle would be reassembled, often with component parts from other manufacturers (known today as mix masters... but no less original in condition).

 

Hope this helps...

 

Wayne

[mpguy80/08]

On my carbines, the adjustable sight covers the manufacturer's name. The serial number is usually visible.

 

You should be able to look under each side of the rear sight and gather enough visual data as to what manufacturer the rifle is... if not, match the serial number to known manufacturer blocks. I have a type 2 rear sight on my 11K range inland and I can still see "IN..." on one side and "...IV" on the other.

 

Wayne

[rayg]

Another thing to consider about Original M1A1's... the Serial number ranges are going to vary... For example, there were 4300 produced in total in 1942, all manufactured in november and december of that year. Indicating an earliest SN of 24700 to a latest SN of 104700. 66648 were manufactured in 1943, ranging from sn 104700 to 999999, and 2712520 to 2995100. 69,052 were produced in 1944, ranging from sn 2995100 to 3212500 and 4879500 to 5546900. No new M1A1's were known to have been produced in 1945.

 

Hope this helps...

 

Wayne

 

Wayne were did you get the information that 66648 were manufactured in 1943, ranging from sn 104700 to 999999, and 2712520 to 2995100.

 

I always wondered, has the 271250-2995100 serial numbers been officially recognized/documented as part of the M1A1 run?

 

I have an all correct Inland # 2921478 in an M1A1 stock with a 10-43 barrel and all I ever read years ago was the carbine club mentioned that they have observed a few M1A1 carbines outside the 999999 serial number and into the 2,000000 number but only as exceptions. Do you have some updated documented information that the 2,00000 serial numbers are now an accepted M1A1 run and not an exception since then? Ray

[shcpirate]

No M1A1 carbines were shipped with a bayonet lug. That one is a post-war rebuild at Augusta Arsenal, so at that point anything goes parts wise and maker wise. They paid no attention to what make of carbine or what parts went into the stock, which is indeed legit. While this has zero percent chance of being original, it is USGI and you got a good deal at what you paid.

[mpguy80/08]

Wayne were did you get the information that 66648 were manufactured in 1943, ranging from sn 104700 to 999999, and 2712520 to 2995100.

 

I always wondered, has the 271250-2995100 serial numbers been officially recognized/documented as part of the M1A1 run?

 

I have an all correct Inland # 2921478 in an M1A1 stock with a 10-43 barrel and all I ever read years ago was the carbine club mentioned that they have observed a few M1A1 carbines outside the 999999 serial number and into the 2,000000 number but only as exceptions. Do you have some updated documented information that the 2,00000 serial numbers are now an accepted M1A1 run and not an exception since then? Ray

 

Larry Ruth's War Baby has a section specifically on the M1A1 Carbine. There are two notes in there that I quoted in my post with those listed serial numbers as known M1A1's pulled for quality assurance and interchangeability testing. The 66,648 total was the total given in Ruth's Warbaby (pg 495) for the total production in 1943 for M1A1's, cross referenced with Ruth Duff pg 28, Table 1.3 Inland Div. Serial number ranges for 1943. Kind of a hap hazard way to do it but the needed info isn't really all in one place.

 

The point I was trying to make in the remainder of my post was that M1A1's were produced right along side of the Full stocked carbines... There was no rhyme nor reason to it. One serial number might be a full stocked carbine, the next a folder, and the next another full stocked carbine followd by three more M1A1's and so on. Since records were not maintained on what serials were produced as what specific type, only the SN's listed as being pulled for QA and Interchangeability tests can be positively attributed to"known M1A1s" by serial number. Even judging by the serial number ranges listed in The M1Carbine Owner's guide (also known as Ruth/Duff or the carbine blue book) for any make of carbine can only be narrowed down to a three month time span. Theoretically, an M1A1 Carbine could have been produced throughout all of the Inland serial numbers produced between November of 1942 and December of 1944. The key thing to remember is that even Larry Ruth, probably the most leaarned Carbine afficionado, with access to Inland documents has only been able to produce books listing approximate numbers due to the lack of official documentation.

 

What is known for fact is that there were only 140,000 M1A1 Carbines produced, all by Inland. Page 495 of Larry Ruth's "WARBABY" shows a table showing M1A1 Monthly production numbers for 1942, 1943 and 1944, the only three years that M1A1's were produced. I then cross referenced with Table 1.3 (page 28) in the Carbine Owner's Guide for Serial number ranges for those years. Any other make of Carbine showing up in a folding stock is obviously a rebuild.

 

WarBaby does list several Winchester carbines that were fitted with at least two other types of folding (or sliding) stocks as prototypes which did NOT enter production.

 

Please keep in mind that I am only going by the reference material in hand... Larry Ruth's Warbaby, Ruth/Duff's Carbine Owner's Guide, and Craig Riesch's M1 Carbine, Wartime Production.

 

I hope that clarifies things... I'll be the first to acknowledge, I'm not an expert, and can only quote the references I have. I use specifically Warbaby and The Carbine Owner's Guide because Larry Ruth, often called the expert on the M1 Carbine, wrote or co-wrote both books based on his own research into the subject.

[Survival]

I don't know a lot about these but it seems like I have been seeing a few of the stocks for sale lately. I was thinking they were being imported from Greece or somewhere else. Especially with that repair which does not seem USGI to me. I was wondering if the stock was recently imported and matched up with gun in the US.