Post WWII MKII grenade?

[Fixbayonets!]

I picked up this grenade at a yard sale & I am trying to figure out exactly what I have. I see that the fuze is post WWII but I am not sure about the grenade body. There are no marking at all on the fuze or the body that I can see. There is a filled in plug on the bottom & the paint looks to be original. Thanks for checking it out.

 

Rob

[Fixbayonets!]

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[Fixbayonets!]

The grenade in question is on the left, it is slightly taller, bulkier & heavier than the MKII on the right.

[Coconut Harry]

I've collected grenades quite a long time, and to me the grenade your asking about, the body looks like it "could" be an RFX (Richmond Foundry) M21 practice grenade that's as you said just had the hole on bottom filled with body filler or something else, then painted OD...are you sure if you look closely you don't see a faint "RFX" on the body or any faint numbers or letters on it? You can look inside the body with flashlight and see what hole's been filled with.

 

Although the shape of this particular body looks "kind of" similar to an actual US issue RFX M21 training grenade, it's not quite as "Knobby" looking as most real RFX's that are seen.....So the body could "possibly" be a real post WW2 MkII solid bottom frag body that's been de-milled by drilling a hole in bottom, then was filled by someone.....either way hole filling & repainting done by someone other than the US military....

 

The fuze looks to be either an M204A1 or A2 or an M205A1-A2 practice fuze missing the internals and been repainted OD.

Also, the pull ring does not look to me like US issue ring, but maybe was made by someone.....but could also just be deformed from messing around with it too many times etc...

 

Does the fuze of the grenade in question fit the real MkII body you show next to it? If that fuze fits the real MkII, but fits loose on the one your asking about, then the one your asking about is 100% for sure one of the repro-fake RFX body's seen often on ebay, gunshows etc for $5-10 bucks.

 

A real post WW2 US issue RFX trainer will always have 9/16" size fuze threads, the same size as WW2 fuzes like M10A3, A2, A1, M200A1, and M6A4C etc. ....the repro's will have larger threads that fit the modern M228 practice fuzes that have larger threads. The thread size difference is "usually" the way to tell the difference between real M21 trainers and the fakes RFX's .......BUT I've also seen some fake RFX's with 9/16" threads !!...... in this case then you have to look carefully at things like the body shape, the type & quality of metal it was cast from, sharpness, shape & font of the RFX marking....easy for someone who has seen 100's & collected-researched pineapples a long time, not so easy for many who have not. Hope I've helped a bit.

 

Regards, Steve

[Fixbayonets!]

Hey Steve, thanks for the reply! The fuze fits tight on both the grenade in question & the MKII I posted. I also tried the WWII fuze that came off the MKII in the photo and that fits the grenade in question tight as well. I took another look for markings and it looks like they were grinded off, something strange going on here, what do you make of it?

 

Rob

 

Close up photo showing what looks to be where the markings were grinded off.........

[Coconut Harry]

Hey Steve, thanks for the reply! The fuze fits tight on both the grenade in question & the MKII I posted. I also tried the WWII fuze that came off the MKII in the photo and that fits the grenade in question tight as well. I took another look for markings and it looks like they were grinded off, something strange going on here, what do you make of it?

 

Rob

 

Close up photo showing what looks to be where the markings were grinded off.........

 

 

Hi Rob, your welcome. Thanks for looking close at it & the extra photo..... Those grind marks are common and completely normal to see on many real grenade bodies from workers just smoothing the seams where 2 halves join.......the pic you've shown does not look to me like someone was trying to remove RFX markings or any other marks...just normal grind marks.

 

After looking at this body more, I'm not sure it's an RFX training body....the frag segments & body shape does not look the same as most RFX bodies. Also the patina of the metal where the paint is missing & the grain of the metal looks fairly quality.....the body actually looks like it could be a real MkIIA1 solid bottom body....but a post WW2 body that's just had a hole drilled in bottom for de-milling or by a collector wanting to make sure everyone (the police, etc) would know it's not a live grenade.... some people do this who live in New York & couple other places where they have crazy stupid laws about grenades & inert ordnance....

 

The thing that makes me think it's an odd body is the shape, thickness & shortness of the neck of the body...and it's a bit taller than most MkII's....but there were many makers of bodies...and this one might just be from an odd maker.

 

Did you look inside to see if you can see "how big" the hole is on the bottom? Practice grenade holes on MkIIA1's & M21's are pretty big (unless they're 9/16" threaded filler hole bodies)...from your pic it's hard to tell, but the filled hole looks quite a bit smaller than a normal practice grenade .......although in WW2 we used many bodies with threaded filler holes for practice grenades with either the lead screw plugs removed, or the plugs were never installed in the first place by pulling them off the production lines, painting blue and using as trainers. You'll see many blue practice grenades with a 9/16" threaded hole on bottom.

 

You got me curious about this body....If it were mine, I'd try to knock out whatever the hole is filled with to see what the hole looks like.....I'm about 100% positive it won't be a threaded 9/16" hole....the shape of the body is totally wrong for a threaded hole body....If after you knock the filler out and if you see it's a real practice grenade, you could strip the green paint and re- paint it the proper blue and put the right fuze on it. I think I have a correct M205A2 fuze for it if want to restore it....

 

Here's a pic of the bottoms of two of the WW2 era trainers I have in my collection....you see how the holes look much bigger than on yours? the one on the right was actually a threaded filler hole body that we (US Gov) drilled out to a larger standard size like the Crane Co. WW2 made M21 pictured on left....We did actually drill out some threaded filler hole bodies during WW2. You can tell these from late war ones made with holes, as the holes will be sloppy and not perfectly round as shown.

 

Just until recently, many, if not most collectors thought M21's were all ONLY post war RFX trainers....BUT..... I have in my collection two M21 trainers with their 1944 dated shipping cans I found a few years back. One M21 is a reused very early threaded hole WWI body marked "T" and the other shown below is a Crane Co. body with plain large hole. Since my finding these WW2 dated M21 trainers, a collector & Ex EOD friend of mine who has access to US Gov records spent some time researching, and he found some US Gov. minutes reports that state we changed the nomenclature of Blue trainers from "grenade, hand, practice MkIIA1" to "grenade, hand, practice, M21" sometime between Oct 1943 & April 1944.....

Sorry for my long "War & Peace" length answer to what seemed like a simple question you asked......but in reality there are many small details to know about US pineapples and practice- training grenades made during WWI, interwar period, WW2, and post WW2 era.....I hope I've not confused the issue too much.... I hope you & anyone who will read this info will get some benefit....I enjoy passing info on to fellow collectors...and if this site stays up for a long time or forever, also for future collectors-researchers to read.....US pineapple grenades have many interesting small details to learn about....

 

Regards, Steve (if you knock the filler out of hole, show another pic...I'd like to see it..)

[Fixbayonets!]

Thanks again Steve! I knocked out the filler on the bottom and it reveals a small, mishapen & unthreaded hole. Would this indicate that this body is a real MKIIA1 that had a hole drilled in the bottom? If so, is it the shape & size of the body that makes it post war? Since the grind marks are normal what do you think of the lack of any markings on the body? Once again, thanks for sharing all of your knowledge & insight, this is a subject I would like to learn more about.

 

Rob

[Coconut Harry]

Thanks again Steve! I knocked out the filler on the bottom and it reveals a small, mishapen & unthreaded hole. Would this indicate that this body is a real MKIIA1 that had a hole drilled in the bottom? If so, is it the shape & size of the body that makes it post war? Since the grind marks are normal what do you think of the lack of any markings on the body? Once again, thanks for sharing all of your knowledge & insight, this is a subject I would like to learn more about.

 

Rob

 

 

Good morning Rob, Yep it seems like it' was an original solid bottom MkIIA1 grenade. I've seen a few completely unmarked bodies before, it's not necessarily a very unusual thing.

 

It could be a late World War II era grenade, or a Korean war or even later, since it's not Marked it's kind of hard to tell, but just the general shape of it to me looks more like a post WW2 grenade. The fuse that is on it now could very well be the original M204A1 fuze, but it's hard to say because it has been repainted or the black stenciling on the top is gone now. You can find a spring and striker on eBay for just a couple bucks and put that in the fuse if you wanted to complete it until you can find a marked M204 which believe it or not are not that easy to find today... I would use the M204 instead of an M10 series fuze just because to me it looks like a Korean era Grenade body...., but this is your choice, you could also set it up to be a World War II model with a World War II fuze

 

Regards, Steve

[Fixbayonets!]

Thanks for the confirmation on the grenade Steve, you have been a big help!

 

Regards,

Rob

[dave peifer]

coconut harry.........very interesting info,just a question,did rfx also make he frag bodies for mk11 grenades,or just the trainer bodies?..........dave

[hink441]

coconut harry.........very interesting info,just a question,did rfx also make he frag bodies for mk11 grenades,or just the trainer bodies?..........dave

 

Not Steve,

But this is a great question and is often debated in the collecting community. Seems there are a few examples in some high end collections of RFX HE grenade bodies. I tend to believe they are out there. I am always on the look out for a RFX HE MK2 body.

 

Chris

[dave peifer]

chris.......thanks for the answer,i also thought rfx may have made some he bodies.........dave

[hink441]

Here is an RFX HE grenade body. I don't own this one, though I wish I did. I can't remember who owns this one either. Damn it s&*%@ gettin old.

 

Chris

 

 

[dave peifer]

chris........great pic,thanks.no question thats an he body...........dave

[Coconut Harry]

Dave & Hink...yes, they did make HE solid bottoms, I found one last year after many years of searching. They are not easy to find for some odd reason.

The RFX you have just shown Hink is Mike's (EODTEK) on BOCN....I had a rather long debate with him about this subject of RFX HE solid bottoms....

 

What is still not known about these holy grail RFX solid bottom grenades is the one you've borrowed pic from EODTEK has yellow overpainted body...which would mean that RFX Richmond Foundry was making HE grenades as early as 1942.....but where are they all??? as far as I've seen and just about everybody else that's a serious collector, no one has ever seen a sold yellow RFX...or any others besides the 2 Mike showed, the one I now have....and it seems Reino in Finland now found one recently he showed on BOCN in my Holy Grail thread....although Reino's pics do not clearly show the markings....I'm going to ask him to post better pics when I get time....

 

Regards, Steve

 

BTW Hink....we know each other...Kinda... if you haven't figured it out yet....Kilroy is I...me hehe

 

I guess I now have "a high end collection" ???

[Coconut Harry]

One more pic or fuze that would not fit because of size limits.....I hate this %&*#$%G limit!!!

 

ADMINS>>>>>Please try to change this!!!

[dave peifer]

steve.......thanks for the pics,this is what makes ordnance fun.i spend a good bit of time on bocn,great site..........dave

[merkworks]

Getting BACK to the original question... I'd like to ask the owner of the "Yard Sale" grenade if, when looking down inside the body with a flashlight, does it have a large OPEN cavity inside, or is there just a "drilled hole" all the way thru this cast iron body?

My reason for asking is that there were "after-market" bodies made that look exactly like yours, cast out of solid iron, drilled out & threaded for the 9/16" x 12 TPI fuzes.. USUALLY on the "slight angle" that is shown in your pictures! It would be very easy to continue drilling the straight hole down through the body to prevent it from looking like a "real" MKIIA1.. Thanks, Jim

[hink441]

I am still not convinced that the OP's grenade is an actual MK2. It appears to be too big when compared side by side to a known MK2 grenade body.

 

Chris

[merkworks]

Like I said Chris, I have seen half-a -dozen of these over the years! All had M205A2 fuzes in them, on a slight angle... They are slightly larger & MUCH heavier (due to being solid), painted green, no markings!

[Coconut Harry]

Getting BACK to the original question... I'd like to ask the owner of the "Yard Sale" grenade if, when looking down inside the body with a flashlight, does it have a large OPEN cavity inside, or is there just a "drilled hole" all the way thru this cast iron body?

My reason for asking is that there were "after-market" bodies made that look exactly like yours, cast out of solid iron, drilled out & threaded for the 9/16" x 12 TPI fuzes.. USUALLY on the "slight angle" that is shown in your pictures! It would be very easy to continue drilling the straight hole down through the body to prevent it from looking like a "real" MKIIA1.. Thanks, Jim

 

Hi Jim, nice to see you here....your the expert...it would have been good if you were here when Rob the OP asked about this grenade ....Much of the info I've learned to help him was learned from you, thank you sir ....I did my best to try to help him out. The info you say above is new to me, I've never seen a solid cast pineapple repro....but if you say you've seen a half dozen, then I believe it.

I did notice in photo of post #4 the fuze sits at a slight angle as you mentioned, but thought maybe the fuze was not screwed in tightly...the rest of pics looked to me like the fuze was sitting straight. Also, I ruled out the reason for the "slight angle" of fuze maybe being due to the wrong thread size by what he said about fitment of fuzes in both bodies he'd shown.

About your question to Rob the OP, I think he probably would have mentioned if it was just a hole through a solid cast body when he looked inside it as I suggested, or after he knocked out the filler in the hole as I also suggested?...but then, maybe not

Also...If you look closely at pic in post #10, the body looks to be hollow on the inside, but pics are also deceiving sometimes.

Regards, Steve

 

 

I am still not convinced that the OP's grenade is an actual MK2. It appears to be too big when compared side by side to a known MK2 grenade body.

 

Chris

 

I'm not 100% sure either Chris, I agree the body is a bit bigger, also the neck is short and thick. But this does not always mean it's a fake-repro body as shown in the long thread debating RFX's on BOCN....the black painted solid bottom RFX shown in that thread had the same short thick neck lust like Rob's grenade.

 

I only said Rob's grenade "seems and could be" a real post war grenade.....which I determined mostly by the small hole drilled in bottom.... fake-repro bodies (99.9% of the time RFX copies) have a much larger & cast hole on bottom, so the small size and it being a drilled hole, it seemed very possible the body "could" be a real solid bottom grenade, just drilled to de-mil.

When I posted to help him, I never knew there were some solid cast repro's made, I've never seen one....But now Jim says he's seen 1/2 dozen before, so the grenade could be one of those....BUT as said, in the pic of the hole in post #10 it looks hollow, it doesn't look solid cast to me??

 

Regards, Steve

 

Like I said Chris, I have seen half-a -dozen of these over the years! All had M205A2 fuzes in them, on a slight angle... They are slightly larger & MUCH heavier (due to being solid), painted green, no markings!

 

Would be nice if Rob came back and answers what you've asked Jim. I'd like to know for sure.

[Fixbayonets!]

I am back, sorry guys, I did not know this grenade was still under discussion. To answer Jim's question - "when looking down inside the body with a flashlight, does it have a large OPEN cavity inside, or is there just a "drilled hole" all the way thru this cast iron body?" The answer is yes, it does have a large open cavity inside, not just a drilled hole.

 

Rob