MAEMT86 Posted February 26, 2013 Share #1 Posted February 26, 2013 Again I've come across an item and I'm not sure of its origin or vintage, so I turn to you all for help. A friend of mine does oil burner work and some general handy man stuff on the side, he was cleaning out an elderly persons basement to take to the dump when he came across this, he gave it to me knowing that I collect anything military. However not sure what I have, it appears to be some sort of training or toy carbine. It appears to be fairly old (he had no back story of how the person had come to own it). Wooden with a metal butt plate, trigger assembly, the lock is marked 1864 Springfield (Faintly) and there is no hole in the nipple, the barrel is fake and wooden until after the last barrel band where it then is a metal piece in place, with a metal rammer. Took a good number of photos for you all to look at. So my questions, what is it supposed to be, what era is it actually from, was it meant to be a toy or a training device and is there any value to it? Regards! First shot, full length both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAEMT86 Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share #2 Posted February 26, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAEMT86 Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share #3 Posted February 26, 2013 details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAEMT86 Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share #4 Posted February 26, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAEMT86 Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share #5 Posted February 26, 2013 Last two, so that's it, thanks for looking and hopefully someone can help me out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAW Posted February 26, 2013 Share #6 Posted February 26, 2013 Looks like a cut-down Springfield to me....."sporterized" at some point a long time ago. It would have been a 3-band rifle....and has been shortened to a 2-band. A shame they did it, but still nice and has some value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave peifer Posted February 26, 2013 Share #7 Posted February 26, 2013 hi guys......as far as my knowlege goes on these is they were cut down and had the wooden portion installed by bannermans sometime in 1880's 90's to be used as cadet training rifles at various military schools etc.sometimes refered to as quaker guns,interested to here other input.......dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Herd Posted February 26, 2013 Share #8 Posted February 26, 2013 It could be a Bannerman Quaker Gun for cadets, that would be a good start for researching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted February 26, 2013 Share #9 Posted February 26, 2013 It does indeed appear to be a dummy rifle. Here is a similar example for sale: http://www.simpsonlt...eae77698a636efc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted February 26, 2013 Share #10 Posted February 26, 2013 Not my area of expertise but, it is fascinating to see one like this is this nice of condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAEMT86 Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share #11 Posted February 26, 2013 Well not off to a bad start. Found a decent website on the matter and will see if they can also help. If anyone else has anything I'd be glad to hear from ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge8 Posted February 26, 2013 Share #12 Posted February 26, 2013 I bought one just like it, except it had a trapdoor action, and good trapdoor lock. I think I paid about $25 for it probably 35 years ago. Put a Dixie Gun Works .45 cal barrel with percussion hammer and made a nice blackpowder shooter out of it. The locks' probably worth about a hundred now, I would guess. Antique dealer I got it from said it was used as a training rifle by local NG troops. Bought the piece not the story though- worth the $25 to me then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave peifer Posted February 26, 2013 Share #13 Posted February 26, 2013 maemt86.........what is the site? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAEMT86 Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share #14 Posted February 26, 2013 maemt86.........what is the site? http://user.pa.net/~the.macs/BANNERGUNS.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave peifer Posted February 26, 2013 Share #15 Posted February 26, 2013 very interesting...........thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1SG_1st_Cav Posted February 26, 2013 Share #16 Posted February 26, 2013 I think there was one on Pawn Stars last year, or the year before. Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KABAR2 Posted February 27, 2013 Share #17 Posted February 27, 2013 Interesting web site, Bannerman also made these up using cast iron breaches and lock plates for the 1842 springfield.... I have both pattern breaches in my parts I used to buy quite a few parts from the last hord of Bannerman parts on Long Island and would get one of these mixed in with other stuff.... it looks like yours either suffered breakage at the lock or the entire front half has been replaced at some point.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakkasan187 Posted February 27, 2013 Share #18 Posted February 27, 2013 I have an old Bannerman's catalog. I will have to check and see if there is any information in the book about your rifle. Leigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAEMT86 Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share #19 Posted February 28, 2013 I have an old Bannerman's catalog. I will have to check and see if there is any information in the book about your rifle. Leigh That'd be great. So digging a little deeper it does appear that it is a Bannerman rifle, got some info back from a gentlemen that knows about them after sending him some photos. "Bannerman used a great variety of muskets to produce these wooden barrel drill rifles. He had acquired a huge number of Springfield muskets after the Civil War and many of them were used in these conversions. There continued to be a market for these drill rifles by military schools and parade units until WWI. By virtue of the fact that yours is a Springfield dated 1863 I suspect that it would have been converted before 1900. They usually had a short section of the metal breech and a short section of metal barrel at the muzzle. This allowed them to fire caps and could mount a bayonet. Bannerman did not mark any of these drill rifles and I am certain that other people produced and sold similar types." Your gun has one unusual feature in that it has a two piece stock. I have never seen one that was made up in this manner. From this I would conclude that it may have been made late in the production when complete muskets were unavailable or too valuable to cut up for training rifles. I seldom see one of the Bannerman guns for sale as the lock parts and bands are generally worth more than the drill rifle. I suspect that most of these guns have been cannibalized for parts." Going to be putting this one up for sale as its really not my era and would be better appreciated by someone who is interested in this era. Somewhat rare as I'm told to have one in complete form. Gonna figure out a price and post it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAEMT86 Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share #20 Posted March 1, 2013 Not sure why the pictures got deleted. Here is the entire album http://s173.beta.photobucket.com/user/AMBULANCE34/library/1861%20Rifle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ngrovcam Posted March 17, 2013 Share #21 Posted March 17, 2013 Ill double check, My dad worked at bannerman's in the 60's he has some stories! Ill ask him! Nick C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted March 18, 2013 Share #22 Posted March 18, 2013 I have a couple of photos of these rifles in use by "cadets" probably in the late 1800s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARGE Posted March 18, 2013 Share #23 Posted March 18, 2013 Nice photograph. These were also known as "Quaker Guns" since they would not fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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