Unknown Manchu Patch On An Army Fatigue Uniform

[seanmc1114]

I ran across this interestingly patched OG-107 fatigue shirt as part of a group on e-Bay and was curious to see if anyone knows if the wearing of this Manchu patch in this manner was legitimate:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IDED-Vietnam-Uniform-and-Helmet-group-OG-shirt-and-trousers-/111000638243?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

 

I am hesitant to post this under the Fakes forum because I just don't know anything about the patch, but I do see some red flags on the uniform that make me a little suspicious. The helmet has a 1970 dated camouflage cover. I know there were exceptions, but I think by that point the wearing of full color SSI and especially rank patches was virtually nonexistent. Another thing that has me questioning it is the 3rd Army SSI as a combat patch. I believe as of the early 70's, the last time someone could have earned 3rd Army as a combat patch would have been WWII. So that makes this guy a Sergeant First Class with around 25 years of service. Certainly not unheard of but somewhat doubtful.

 

What I have been able to find is that the 171st Infantry Brigade was active from 1963 through 1972 so it does fit within the time period the uniform would have been worn. And the 6th Battalion 9th Infantry ("Manchu") was assigned to the 171st.

 

I just think it's an interesting insignia combination and wonder if anyone can vouch for it.

[patches]

Well sean there's always the possibility that he got out after WWII and reenlisted or was called back in during the Korean War, and served in places other than Korea during the war, and just decided to stay in after that, so were looking at a 4 to 5 year gap in service time, but we see by the e-bay description he was not one of those men, it states he was in korea and vietnam, so the mystery begins.

[patches]

BUMP, whose the member that was stationed up at Fort Wainwright when the 6th Battalion 9th Infantry was there in the late 60s early 70s? J Andrews, atb? I forgot Can you please verify if these Manchu patches were worn then, and if it was worn as seen, above the U.S. ARMY tape?

 

Thank's

[1SG_1st_Cav]

The subdued name tag and US Army with full color patches and chevrons sends up red flags that this uniform was pieced together

[patches]

The subdued name tag and US Army with full color patches and chevrons sends up red flags that this uniform was pieced together

 

TOP I'm surprised! These type of fatiques with Subdued U.S. ARMY and name tapes and color ranks and shoulder patches, qualifcation and skill badges were very common in your day outside of South Vietnam and Army wide, in fact they were the only types seen outside of South Vietnam Army wide. Collectors and students of the era call them Transitional badged fatiques, Fleld Jackets, OG Wool shirts. There use was from around the late summer 1966 ( starting with a subdued name tape only, starting sometime the following year in 1967, both the name and now the U.S. ARMY tapes being subdued) till around 1970, but by that time it was seen less so, with all subdued insignias to include the new collar ranks being the standard.

 

As far as this particular fatique shirt being original, I say the jury is still out on that, my additional inquiry is about the MANCHU patch, it was a style particular to the 6th of the 9th Infantry, 171st Infantry Brigade ( sep ) from 1966 till both units were deactivated in 1972. I know there is at least one oldtimer whose a member, who was stationed at Wainwright when the 6/9 Inf was there, I wanted to know his insight on the MANCHU patch.

[atb]

By the time I was at Ft. Wainright in 1972, all insignia was subdued and the Manchu patches were not worn by either the 4th or 6th of the 9th Inf. If my memory is right, those Manchu chest patches were worn in the early to late-1960's. The first insignia to be widely worn as subdued were the US ARMY and nametape. That combination of full color sleeve rank, SSIs along with subdued tapes was very common. I saw it even in early 1970, though rarely. July 1970 was the cut-off by when all insignia was to be subdued and collar rank replace sleeve rank on fatigues.

[KurtA]

This shirt is 100% without-a-doubt the "Real McCoy."

[seanmc1114]

This shirt is 100% without-a-doubt the "Real McCoy."

What exactly was the purpose of the Manchu patch? Was it considered a DUI or some sort of skill badge? Was it worn by all members of the unit or did it have to be earned?

[atb]

Unit morale and esprit. Some units wore a cloth pocket patch that resembled the DUI and others chose a more imaginative approach, like the "Manchu" patch. The 23rd Infantry in Alaska wore a similarly-sized patch that depicted a tomahawk. I don't think it indicated a skill or any kind of test had to be taken.

[patches]

By the time I was at Ft. Wainright in 1972, all insignia was subdued and the Manchu patches were not worn by either the 4th or 6th of the 9th Inf. If my memory is right, those Manchu chest patches were worn in the early to late-1960's. The first insignia to be widely worn as subdued were the US ARMY and nametape. That combination of full color sleeve rank, SSIs along with subdued tapes was very common. I saw it even in early 1970, though rarely. July 1970 was the cut-off by when all insignia was to be subdued and collar rank replace sleeve rank on fatigues.

 

 

Thank's atb, I knew...I knew one of you guys mention several times about being at Ft Wainwright back in those days. I thinking that this MANCHU patch here was a AK thing only, maybe even only the 6/9 Inf wearing them, don't seem to see them being worn in 66 by the 4/9th in the RVN, I have that 25th Div yearbook and I not seeing it. Also at least by 1959, probably alittle earlier, and alittle later no doubt, the 2nd BG 9th Inf was wearing the pocket patch of the type that is based on the 9th Infantry's crest, not the DI but the crest, this one differs in that it has a scroll on the bottom, like the one in Barry Stein's Patch book IS NOT like the type seen being worn by the 2nd BG at Fort Benning in 59.

[seanmc1114]

don't seem to see them being worn in 66 by the 4/9th in the RVN, I have that 25th Div yearbook and I not seeing it.

I'm pretty sure Manchu was worn as a tab over the 25th SSI in Vietnam by some soldiers which probably served pretty much the same purpose. I've also seen Wolfhounds and Bobcats tabs on 35th uniforms.

[J_Andrews]

In Jan 1966, the 4th Bns of both the 9th Inf and 23rd Inf deployed from Alaska to RVN, as subordinates of the 25th ID. That is, they were REASSIGNED (all very official, with published orders, etc.) from the 171st and 172nd Bdes to the Div. To take their places, 6-9 and 5-23 were activated and assigned to the Bdes.

 

The 4-9 and 4-23 next left RVN and returned to Alaska; their "Beta units", 6-9 and 5-23, then were inactivated.

 

Prior to VN service, the 4-9 and 4-23 had and wore the MANCHU and TOMAHAWK oblong patches. IIRC the 23rd wore theirs above the nametape, while the 4-9 placed theirs over the USARMY tape. These were worn on field jackets and wool "Alaska" or "Blanket" shirts (on the shirts, the CIFs sewed large tapes, twice as wide as nametapes to the shirts so that taking off and putting on a series of nametapes, etc. when they were re-issued time and again, would not tear up the wool material). The idea was: 1. Show pride in the units (like DUIs); 2. Make members of the Inf readily identifiable/differentiable. I am not familiar with wear on OG107 fatigue shirts.

 

I did not serve in either Bn. My older brother was in 4-23, 1962-1966. I inherited his M51 field jacket, which had the TOMAHAWK patch over the nametape (white!). It also had metal DUIs on cbt ldr tabs.

[J_Andrews]

Ooops, forgot: There was another Inf Bn in Alaska that wore such a patch, 1-60th Inf. Theirs read GO DEVILS. It did not go to VN.

[Jeeperz83]

This was my auction and part of massive grouping I had to piece out. I picked it up right from the family. I only got limited history from the son, but this guy was in Alaska at Ft. Wainwright in the mid-60's, then Vietnam and stateside in the 1970's until retirement. Also an earlier deployment to Korea in either late 50's or early 60's. I originally only wanted the group for his Viet-made pistol belt rig and tropical coat but ended up with a ton of items. As far as the Manchu insignia, I was told they had these made in Korea and sent to AK.

[J_Andrews]

The ROK-USARAL connection was not a mere blip. When I was in USARAL for an exercise in 1979, all the PX tailor shops (and other kiosks in the mini-malls) were KOREAN operations, with their staffs imported from ROK. I was looking for the flashes that were worn on the "buffalo chip" or "cow pie" OD berets (which ended the previous Sep-Oct) and they told me they could order any I wanted -- from ROK -- and have them in two weeks. There were also a few Korean restaurants in Anchorage as part of this expatriate enclave.

[patches]

The ROK-USARAL connection was not a mere blip. When I was in USARAL for an exercise in 1979, all the PX tailor shops (and other kiosks in the mini-malls) were KOREAN operations, with their staffs imported from ROK. I was looking for the flashes that were worn on the "buffalo chip" or "cow pie" OD berets (which ended the previous Sep-Oct) and they told me they could order any I wanted -- from ROK -- and have them in two weeks. There were also a few Korean restaurants in Anchorage as part of this expatriate enclave.

 

No Koreans at Wainwright in 81-82 I,m afraid, granted Wainwright was a very small post in comparison to Richardson. I do recall the tailor shop at the the PX, the only PX on the post and thus the only tailor shop on the post, the staff where all white ladies, I gather Service Wives, as matter of fact earlier on at Fort Hood the nearby small PX annex by my barracks near the end of Cav Country had only white ladies in the tailor shop, Koreans, yes, but these ladies worked the register in the PX proper or worked in the snack bar that was collocated here, there was a least one German women I remember, a Service wife, I think she was the assistant manager or had some sort of managerial position for this PX annex.

[patches]

This was my auction and part of massive grouping I had to piece out. I picked it up right from the family. I only got limited history from the son, but this guy was in Alaska at Ft. Wainwright in the mid-60's, then Vietnam and stateside in the 1970's until retirement. Also an earlier deployment to Korea in either late 50's or early 60's. I originally only wanted the group for his Viet-made pistol belt rig and tropical coat but ended up with a ton of items. As far as the Manchu insignia, I was told they had these made in Korea and sent to AK.

 

Jeeperz thank's for clarifying some of this here for us, we were wondering why no combat patches for Korea or Vietnam and one for a unit that had not seen overseas service since 1945. As you stated he was in WWII and Korea, he then was as you say at Fort Wainwright mid 60s, then later he went to Vietnam in the 70s, we then gather 1970 or 1971 would be the dates he was there in Nam. This then as far as I,m concered explains the wear of 3rd Army as a combat patch on this shirt.

 

Since he has both name and U.S. ARMY subdued tapes sewn on we can then date this shirt from sometime in 1967 to 1969 or the point right before he left for Vietnam, 1970? That he wears the 3rd Army as a combat patch on this shirt in 67-69 is now alittle easier to explain. He was more proud of and identified more with, his WWII service in a unit of 3rd Army then with the unit he was with in Korea, but as we see he didn't serve in Vietnam at the time he was in the 6/9th Inf, so at that the time, before he went to Vietnam, it was his choice to wear either a patch for WWII or Korea, he choose his WWII wartime unit.

 

 

Now, out of curiousity, do you know what his MOS was? and do you have his uniforms he had when he retired?

[Jeeperz83]

Well, here is what I got from the database but it raises more questions. I had not ran his name previously, this shows him as twenty year man from 52-72 which eliminates WWII 3rd Army service. All I have left from the group are some pictures of him in Vietnam and his boonie, no uniforms unfortunately.

Name: MCCOY JOHN J JR Branch: ARMY Rate: E07 Rank: SERGEANT 1ST CLASS MOS: 94B MOS Title: Food Service Specialist Entered: 5207 Discharged: 720204 Service Number: State: FLORIDA Race: CAUCASIAN

[patches]

Well, here is what I got from the database but it raises more questions. I had not ran his name previously, this shows him as twenty year man from 52-72 which eliminates WWII 3rd Army service. All I have left from the group are some pictures of him in Vietnam and his boonie, no uniforms unfortunately.

Name: MCCOY JOHN J JR Branch: ARMY Rate: E07 Rank: SERGEANT 1ST CLASS MOS: 94B MOS Title: Food Service Specialist Entered: 5207 Discharged: 720204 Service Number: State: FLORIDA Race: CAUCASIAN

 

Ah for pete's sake, I forgot the original description you had, Korea Vietnam only, So the mystery remains why the 3rd Army patch? Was this guy actualy IN Korea during the war or was he a Korean War service/era guy, he may have have served stateside in a unit directly controlled by 3rd Army, and perhaps thought he could and did wear the 3rd Army as a "Korean Wartime " patch. The bright side of this info is that we now know he was a cook and not a Infantryman, if he was, we would be asking why no cloth CIB

[mhollis44]

Sorry, but I just saw this topic tonight. My dad was in the 1st BG / 9th Inf at Allison Air Force Base (AK) and later moved down to Ladd Air Force Base (AK) in 1959-1960. He was provided the Manchu patch to be worn on their fatigue uniforms over the name tag and not over the "US Army" as shown in the initial post. Perhaps this practice changed over the decade.

 

Here is a picture of some of his patches in a shadow box:

 

Thanks

Matt

[patches]

@mhollis, that's intriging infomation on this MANCHU patches. Do you have any photos? For the record, it will be Eielson Air Force Base, which was south-southeast of Ladd Air Base/Fort Wainwright, thus the move to Ladd would be north.

[mhollis44]

@mhollis, that's intriging infomation on this MANCHU patches. Do you have any photos? For the record, it will be Eielson Air Force Base, which was south-southeast of Ladd Air Base/Fort Wainwright, thus the move to Ladd would be north.

I actually spoke to my dad just before posting as I couldn't remember the position of the Manchu patch. I do have his photo album from Alaska and will try to post some pictures later today. There are a couple taken out in the field where the Manchu patch is clearly visible.

 

Thanks

Matt

[patches]

I actually spoke to my dad just before posting as I couldn't remember the position of the Manchu patch. I do have his photo album from Alaska and will try to post some pictures later today. There are a couple taken out in the field where the Manchu patch is clearly visible.

 

Thanks

Matt

Sounds great, we'll look forward to them.

[mhollis44]

Sorry for the poor quality of the pictures, but I don't have access to a scanner right now. This first picture shows a member of my dad's squad while completing a field exercise. The Manchu patch is visible above the name tape.

:

[mhollis44]

And here is a picture of my dad in the barracks. Again, the Manchu patch is visible above the name tape.

 

 

Thanks,

Matt