Current Cavalry/Infantry insignia questions

[cavcon]

I am hoping someone can help.. I am a little confused about some cavalry units wearing infantry backings on collar brass, infantry shoulder cords and CBI's. I saw some photos of the 91st Cavalry (173rd A/B Brigade) and the soldier was wearing the 91st Di and flash on the maroon beret with the matching oval with parachute badge. I have also seen this combination with a Trooper from the 3rd Cavalry, wearing a 3rd ACR patch on the left arm... Any thoughts? Thank you...

[patches]

Back in my day as well as the Vietnam War era, 1970s, these type of Divisional and Brigade Cavalry squardons to include the seperate Armored Cavalry Regiments did include a fair number of 11 Bravos and 11 Charlies, take the Air Cavalry Squadron, these type of units had a Infantry Platoon in each troop, they were known as the Blue Platoon, in the other type squadrons and ACRs I not sure how the make up of the platoons were, a seperate Infantry platoon or mixed Infantry platoon, mixed with Cavalry Reconassance scout 11Ds or the later 19Ds troops, one thing is for sure, the 81mm Mortar Platoons found in these units would consist entirly of 11C mortarmen who are of course Infantry. So here in todays Army, I gather the same holds true.

[Longhorn92]

I agree with Patches, I think there're probably plenty of 11 series guys in those cav units. I asked a friend of mine who just retired and he confirmed that fact.

[cavcon]

Ok, thanks for the information and your time.. The Army can be confusing at times.....

[J_Andrews]

AND the current array of "Cav" units include Brigade-level Squadrons that may consist of only TWO (2) Troops, one (usually Trp A) that has the Mission Identifier "Ground Recon" and one (Trp that is either "Air" or "Air Rcn". SOME such Bde-level Sqns have a Trp C that is armored in some way (some with Strykers, some with Bradleys).

 

The DIVISION-level Sqns generally have three Troops/Cos, maybe four, and IIRC in a few cases FIVE. When they are big enough for five sub-units, one will be mixed BFVs and Abrams MBTs and another will be an "Infantry-pure" unit called a COMPANY, the Abn LRS for the Div at large. A couple years ago, in the transition period, many LRS elements were Platoons (only), within the HQ Trp of the Sqn. Which letter designation is applied to which elements is "negotiable"; I have seen the LRS as both Co C and Co E.

 

Not sure if the use of the "Air Cav Troop" monicker means there is an organic "Blues" or "Aero Rifle" Platoon (as in VN days).

 

BTW are members aware of where the bunch of new Cav Regiments came form? Like 61st, 71st, 91st ? Answer: Most of the new family of funny numbers came from WWII Tank Destroyer units. The 61st Cav is the resurrected 6O1st TD, the 71st the old 701st.

[vzemke]

Your question is in regards to the Cavalry Squadrons (AKA "RSTA Squadrons")in modern Infantry Brigade Combat Teams (such as the 173rd), so here is how it is done CURRENTLY.

 

RSTA (Recon-Survailence-Traget Acquisition) Squadrons are inherently a mixture of Infantry and Cav/Armor MOSs, but are still considered Cavalry units. The Squadron Commander is almost always an Infantryman (11A series) if its in a Light Infantry Brigade, mechanized brigades may be different. These Squadrons are made up of three Recon Troops and one HQ Troop (HHT). The first two troops, A and B, are by organization mounted and SHOULD be mostly 19 series soldiers, but it doesn't always work out that way for a variety of reasons. The third troop, C, is dismounted and designed to be all Infantrymen. The HHT also has a mortar platoon, which is all Infantrymen as well (some RSTAs divide the mortars between the three Troops). The SQN staff is usually split about 1/3 Infantry, 2/3 Cavalry types, but that probably depends on available manpower within the Brigade at the time. There is also a Support Troop (D), which is all mechanics, cooks, truck drivers, and fuelers (and the only place you will find females in the unit).

 

I hope this helps,

Vance

[cavcon]

Great information and I think I actually understand it. Thanks guys!

[X_redcatcher]

most of the New 2nd Cav are grunts (11B) and it REALLY ticks me off to see blue cords on the Stetsons with crossed sabers!! God, BE CAV or not and but live up to the regiment!!

[patches]

most of the New 2nd Cav are grunts (11B) and it REALLY ticks me off to see blue cords on the Stetsons with crossed sabers!! God, BE CAV or not and but live up to the regiment!!

 

 

This to me has always been a conundrum for me, the use of Infantry in Cavalry units post WWII, the biggest one being of course the 1st Cavalry Division. Since around February-March 1943 the Cav has been either an Infantry Division or a Armored Division, it contained in every case either all Infantry Regiments later Infantry Battalions or as an Armored Division Armor Battalions with Mechanized Infantry Battalions. Having served in the Cav I can tell you there is a certain degree of confliction in terms of branch pride, but the Cav of my day however was riding in the midst of it's fairly recent Vietnam War laurels earning performance as a Airmobile Infantry Division, so when I was there in 80-81 we were more inclined to consider the Cav as Infantry and Infantry only.

 

It wasn't always like that, in WWII old 1st Cav Div guys were confused as to there new status, likewise the two seperate Cavalry Regiments that became in essense Infantry, did these guys have either their MOS's officialy classified as Infantry or had their Cavalry MOS unchanged, it depends on who you talk too, but for those guys in the main the one constant was they considered themselves to be Cavarlyman not Infantryman, I understand the older orginal men didn't wear crossed rifiles post VJ day in Japan while the newer men that came out while the Cav was in combat did, these men were trained Infantrymen who underwent their Basic at Infantry Replacement Centers. I used to remember the deal on the CIB awardings towards the end of the war, like they were not going to get them, or they were, they were going to get them but there was stipulations, like they could were the CIB with Crossed Sabre Cavalry Branch insignia's, I can't remember that now.

 

In any event, by the time of the Cav's commitment to Korea, the charactor had already changing in the 1st Cav Div, in that the Regiment's Squadrons were redesignated as Battalions and the Troops therein redesignated Companies, this was done to put the 1st Cavalry Division which despite it's title was an Infantry Division in line with other the Infantry Divisions of the Army, and from what I know the spirit of the Infantry Regiments of Division while outwardly still using Cavalry symbolisims to a certain degree, basicaly changed to one of Infantry.

[124cav]

During ww2,the Cavalry regiments within the 1st Cavalry division wore cavalry brass,despite the dismounting ,during the war the division was 1st Cavalry Divisiion(Dismounted)

Most replacements came from Ft Riley

The same is true of the 112th and the 124th

Many of the 124th Cavalry replacements from Ft Riley found themselves in the 475th Infantry reg.

[buzzard517]

1-158 Cavalry (MD ARNG) has a C Trp. (LRS) They also wear the Maroon beret and are 11 series, abn qualified soldiers. 1-158 Cav is a subordinate unit of the 58th Battlefield Surveilance Brigade. Tat used to be the 58th IBCT but the arty unit was disbanded and it's infantry assets were transfered to the 28th Division (PA ARNG)

[VolunteerArmoury]

I saw a uniform in an antique mall in Myrtle Beach a couple years to a 1st Cav Div guy circa mid-1950s with Infantry Distinctive Trim Backings (plastic disks) behind crossed sabers branch of service discs that were rusted to a point I couldn't remove a clasp so I was confident of it provenance to the uniform.

Cavalry Troops have mortar sections with a FDC which are Infantry MOSs (11C) was my first assignment as a mortarman in a Cav Troop in the 90s. We had 120mm mortars in M106 Mortar Carriers which were the mortar version from the M113 series family. For a while all of us in the Cav Troop were to wear sabers & if we chose to get a Stetson yellow cords. This is in accordance with AR 670-1 Feb 2005 page 213, it states (& I believe this was officially addressed in the 80s about the time Scouts went to Armor from Infantry, "(8) Cavalry collar insignia. Officers and enlisted personnel assigned to cavalry regiments, cavalry squadrons, or separate cavalry troops are authorized to wear cavalry insignia in lieu of the branch insignia, when approved by the MACOM commander. The officer collar insignia is two crossed sabers in scabbards with the cutting edge up, 11/16 inch in height, in gold-colored metal. The enlisted collar insignia is the same design on a 1-inch disk in gold-colored metal (see fig 28–75." While I had 19D as a Primary MOS for our official DA photo we were told to wear Armor Branch of Service Collar Insignia since Cavalry isn't a branch & our MOS numerical designation was part of Armor. In the same once as an Infantryman for an official DA photos we were routinely directed to remove our cords & disks which we didn't like.

[patches]

I saw a uniform in an antique mall in Myrtle Beach a couple years to a 1st Cav Div guy circa mid-1950s with Infantry Distinctive Trim Backings (plastic disks) behind crossed sabers branch of service discs that were rusted to a point I couldn't remove a clasp so I was confident of it provenance to the uniform.

Cavalry Troops have mortar sections with a FDC which are Infantry MOSs (11C) was my first assignment as a mortarman in a Cav Troop in the 90s. We had 120mm mortars in M106 Mortar Carriers which were the mortar version from the M113 series family. For a while all of us in the Cav Troop were to wear sabers & if we chose to get a Stetson yellow cords. This is in accordance with AR 670-1 Feb 2005 page 213, it states (& I believe this was officially addressed in the 80s about the time Scouts went to Armor from Infantry, "(8) Cavalry collar insignia. Officers and enlisted personnel assigned to cavalry regiments, cavalry squadrons, or separate cavalry troops are authorized to wear cavalry insignia in lieu of the branch insignia, when approved by the MACOM commander. The officer collar insignia is two crossed sabers in scabbards with the cutting edge up, 11/16 inch in height, in gold-colored metal. The enlisted collar insignia is the same design on a 1-inch disk in gold-colored metal (see fig 28–75." While I had 19D as a Primary MOS for our official DA photo we were told to wear Armor Branch of Service Collar Insignia since Cavalry isn't a branch & our MOS numerical designation was part of Armor. In the same once as an Infantryman for an official DA photos we were routinely directed to remove our cords & disks which we didn't like.

 

The crossed sabers are interesting, It would seem for a brief period the crossed sabers were worn with the Blue stuff, I know of a photo of them being worn I have to find it. when I do I'll post it. When I was in the Cav in 1980-81 only one man serving as a Infantyman did I ever see wearing Cavalry Branch Crossed Sabres, this was our Battalion CO Lieutenant Colonel Billy Brown CO 2nd Battalion 12th Cavalry, he once commanded the 2/12 Cav in Vietnam, as a Major he took over the Battalion for a short spell after the CO Lieutenant Colonel Gorvad was Killed at LZ Grant in March 1969, Lt Col Brown could be seen on the occasion when the Class A or Khaki uniforms were worn on paydays wearing no Blue rope or Crossed rifles but Crossed sabres, with 12 over them, I guess it was his perogative, perhaps only Battalion Infantry or Armor COs and the Brigade COs the Full Birds could do it, never seen Company Grade Officers doing it.

 

In the CSC companies of Infantry Battalions possibly the Armor Battalions contained the Cavarly Reconaissance Platoon, 19 Delta's all, these guys wore the Cavalry Branch crossed sabres, the used the same tracks as we did but they had differant missions, I talked to one once on a payday when I spoted him around the Battalion area in Class A's he told me his story, 19D Fort Knox trained etc. There is a older topic that discuses the confusion on the Tank/Armor/ Infantry MOSs, of the 1960s 1970s era MOSs in that tank Crewmam and Cavarly Scouts shared the 11 series with Infantry MOSs, though they can never be considered a part of the Infantry, it was just one of those Army things, this was changed in the late 70s, March 1978 effective, that Armor units to include Cavalry Scouts where given their 19 series MOS's.

[patches]

Here's the photo, I think this guys name is Abraham Lincoln, an Unknown unit of the 5th Cavalry in Japan 1956, we see the crossed sabres being worn with the Blue, not really sure who long this was affected, if it was confined only to the 5th Cavalry, or a specific unit within the 5th Cavalry, like a reach would be that Crossed Sabres may have been worn by the Regimental I&R Platoon in the Cavalry Regiments? As mention earlier the 1st Cavalry Division in the 50s early 60 contineud to display Cavarly Branch symbolisms, this might be a part of that, it is intresting though, the Cavarly ceased to be a seperate Branch , but as we have seen the Crossed Sabres without Tank continued to be seen being worn, usually by Officers, like all those Fatiques and Tropical Coats that crop up every so often, Officers most of the time Aviators, with cloth Crossed Sabre badges.

 

A nice candid photo.

 

[FA_MAJ]

It is tricky. Cavalry is not a branch anymore. Cavalry is a type of unit. Those units so designated (like 1-91 CAV Squadron and 1st Cav Division) carry on some cavalry traditions such as the Stetson and spurs and, more inconsistantly, crossed sabres. Sure there is an MOS for "Cav Scout" (19D I think) but that is an armor MOS. Also, you'd never see an officer in a CAV unit with yellow lapels on his mess dress. They would instead be the color of his branch - infantry, armor, FA, etc. Anyway, Vance lays it out very nicely above. By the way, the current commander of 1-91 CAV was a LT with me back in the day. Great guy. Super leader. Infantry all the way. Info on the unit webpage here: http://www.173airborne.army.mil/1-91%20ABN%20CAV/191cdr.html His CSM is infantry too: http://www.173airborne.army.mil/1-91%20ABN%20CAV/191csm.html

[J_Andrews]

The entire 1st Cav Div, from 1942 on, was DISMOUNTED, but FOR THE SAKE OF TRADITION kept (some at least) Cav attributes. Its Regimetns were ORGANIZED AS INFANTRY, per INF TO&E's.....EXCEPT the Div kept its two Brigades HHTs, four "Inf" Regts vice three in a normal If Div, squds and platoons had fewer men, squads were led by CPLs (mostly).

 

Post-WWII it lost the Brigade HQs and went to three Regts, which had standard Inf internal org.

 

Infantry attributes for uniforms were correct, from 1942 on: Inf BOS emblems, CIBs, blue guidons, etc. When the blue ropes and plastic collar discs came in, the 1st Cav got them too. same for Inf blue scarves. However, both by unit local practice and individual whim, the Horse Soldier playthings surfaced, again and again, erroneously. Yellow scarves, red-white guidons, crossed sabre BOS and so on.

[patches]

It is tricky. Cavalry is not a branch anymore. Cavalry is a type of unit. Those units so designated (like 1-91 CAV Squadron and 1st Cav Division) carry on some cavalry traditions such as the Stetson and spurs and, more inconsistantly, crossed sabres. Sure there is an MOS for "Cav Scout" (19D I think) but that is an armor MOS. Also, you'd never see an officer in a CAV unit with yellow lapels on his mess dress. They would instead be the color of his branch - infantry, armor, FA, etc. Anyway, Vance lays it out very nicely above. By the way, the current commander of 1-91 CAV was a LT with me back in the day. Great guy. Super leader. Infantry all the way. Info on the unit webpage here: http://www.173airbor...CAV/191cdr.html His CSM is infantry too: http://www.173airbor...CAV/191csm.html

 

Thanks for those two links Maj, very interesting.

 

 

Is not Yellow the Branch color of Armor? I think it is.

 

 

The old 11D and the MOS it was changed to in the late 70s 19D, was like you say an Armor Branch MOS, but in so far as the title, it was keep the Cavalry in it to reflect the mission of the Cavalry, to be the eyes and ears of a larger body, In the 2/12 Cav as mentioned these guys formed a Platoon in CSC Company, it would be the standard TO&E in the Mechnized Infantry Battalion, which was what the 2nd of the 12th Cav was, Cav Scout 19D's at least in my unit in 1980-81 wore the old Crossed Sabres, not Armor, even though both under took their repective AIT at Knox ( I guess now at Benning )I think it was because of the differance in missions that Armor and the Cav Scouts had. I also would say that it was most likey after the MOS of Armor Reconnaissace Specialist 11D the name of this MOS of the 50s to late 70s was changed to Cavalry Scout in March 1978 that the newly minted 19 Deltas began to wear the old Crossed Sabres, the EM collar discs going back to even when Elvis was a Armor Recon GI was Armor, officers, it known that an officer or two could be seen wearing the old Crossed Sabres back in the days of the 50s though 70s.

[FA_MAJ]

Great point about yellow being the armor branch color. You are totally correct. I should have said not to confuse the yellow branch color with CAV. It is armor. Even when worn with crossed sabres.

 

Additionally, you'll see crossed sabres sometimes on the infantry and artillery soldiers assigned to the unit. In my own FA battalion, the fire support officers assigned to the CAV squadron would wear crossed cannons to the FA events like St. Barbara's Day ball, DIVARTY dining in, etc. but would don the crossed sabres for events with the CAV squadron.

[124cav]

The entire 1st Cav Div, from 1942 on, was DISMOUNTED, but FOR THE SAKE OF TRADITION kept (some at least) Cav attributes. Its Regimetns were ORGANIZED AS INFANTRY, per INF TO&E's.....EXCEPT the Div kept its two Brigades HHTs, four "Inf" Regts vice three in a normal If Div, squds and platoons had fewer men, squads were led by CPLs (mostly).

 

Post-WWII it lost the Brigade HQs and went to three Regts, which had standard Inf internal org.

 

Infantry attributes for uniforms were correct, from 1942 on: Inf BOS emblems, CIBs, blue guidons, etc. When the blue ropes and plastic collar discs came in, the 1st Cav got them too. same for Inf blue scarves. However, both by unit local practice and individual whim, the Horse Soldier playthings surfaced, again and again, erroneously. Yellow scarves, red-white guidons, crossed sabre BOS and so on.

 

Hmmm

 

Most replacments going to th 1st Cavalry Division and the 112th came from Ft Riley

 

I have a bunch of ww2 Cavalry stuff and so far all the EM coats are coming up sabres.

 

Even when the Cavalry ceased to exist (absorbed into armoured forces) the Constabulary still wore crossed sabres,i have some correspondance between General White and to Bob Willard (im assuming that its Col Robert Willard,CO of the 16th Squadron) saying "Bob,anyone in uniform calling the horse platoon cavalry will be sent home,and that means you too Mister"

 

Even the 7766th Constabulary Horse troop (1948-1949) was told "horse mounted soldier" was the correct term.

 

 

Here is some "horse mounted soldiers" of the 7766th in 1949

 

[124cav]

 

even jump wings on one of these "horse mounted soldiers"

[124cav]

 

and here is Infantry combat bagde with crossed sabres

[124cav]

 

Not exactly on topic but here is a nice Vmail

 

Its worth noting that the 1st Cavalry division may have 4 regiments,these Cavalry in Infantry mode had 2 Squadrosn each,rather then the 3 Battalions of an Infantry regiment.

 

"Infantry by accident of dismounting" is what a 7th cavalryman told me

[124cav]

 

Ft Riley 1946

 

 

Ft Riley 1945 (124th Cavalryman at Riley as instructor)

 

 

1st Cav ssi and a couple of infantry combat badges again at Ft Riley

[124cav]

I actually didnt read the subject,it said "current"

 

sorry

[patches]

The entire 1st Cav Div, from 1942 on, was DISMOUNTED, but FOR THE SAKE OF TRADITION kept (some at least) Cav attributes. Its Regimetns were ORGANIZED AS INFANTRY, per INF TO&E's.....EXCEPT the Div kept its two Brigades HHTs, four "Inf" Regts vice three in a normal If Div, squds and platoons had fewer men, squads were led by CPLs (mostly).

 

Post-WWII it lost the Brigade HQs and went to three Regts, which had standard Inf internal org.

 

Infantry attributes for uniforms were correct, from 1942 on: Inf BOS emblems, CIBs, blue guidons, etc. When the blue ropes and plastic collar discs came in, the 1st Cav got them too. same for Inf blue scarves. However, both by unit local practice and individual whim, the Horse Soldier playthings surfaced, again and again, erroneously. Yellow scarves, red-white guidons, crossed sabre BOS and so on.

 

I respectfully disagree on one or two point's John, this will be in reguards to the Infantry Guidons being used in the "Infantry" Regiments of the 1st Cav Div and scarfs. While you're right on all the stuff reguarding Crossed Rifles being worn, which they where to a great degree post war in Japan, and afterwards when the 1st Cav Div left combat in Korea and returned to Japan and later still when the 24th Infantry Division was reflagged as the 1st Cavalry Division in 1957, it would seem that the Cavalry Guidons continued to be the official Guidons of the 1st Cavalry Division's regiments from the late 40s after it was totally reorganized.

 

This photo is one I seen on and off for years in a few books on the Korean War, I was fortunate to find it just now by googleing key words, like 1st Cavalry Division Guidons Korean War etc, this photo is of GIs of Baker Company 8th Cavalry during the fighting on the way to Pyongyang, in October 1950 ( note the weather is still warm, or at least cooler and the snows have not started), the Regiments despite them being Infantry still used the Cavalry Guidon, I don't think the Regiments of the Division ever did use the Blue Guidon with White crossed rifles, certainly they didn't when I was in the Cav in 80-81.

 

 

Then there is the issue with the Blue scarfs and Yellow scarfs, I'm of the Belief that the Infantry Regiments, later Battle Groups and later still Battalions of the Division didn't wear either color to any great extent, the Yellow scarfs were worn by divisional level Honor Guard Platoons or Companies in the mid to late 50s, early to mid 60s, this being in Japan and later back in South Korea. In Keller's Badges of Honor in the 1st Cavalry Division's patches chapter we do see one these Honor Guard, an officer in 1961 turned out in honor of a visit from Mother Dorsey, (for those not knowing who she is, she is one the Designers of the 1st Cav Div's shoulder patch, along with her husband Colonel Benjamin Dorsey CO of 7th Cavalry Regiment, they designed the patch in 1921). In the photo we see a Lieutenant of the Honor Guard, he wears the the Yellow scarf with crossed sabres, I don't know what this officers branch really is, Armor, Artillery, Infantry, but there's no doubt he's wearing the crossed sabres and the Yellow scarf because of this special 1st Cav Div unit, to represent the Cavalry in symbolism.

 

Also in this chapter there is another "Infantry" units guidon shown, this one is for Combat Support Company 1st Battle Group 5th Cavalry circa late 50s early 60s, a small sized one to be placed on a rod of I guess the CS Company's Old Man's jeep fender.