Theater made 18 military police brigade - Vietnam

[JerseyDevil117]

I picked this patch up in a old collection of patches ranging from ww2 to the vietnam era. Do any of you guys know if this patch is theater made? If so where was it made and value?

[JerseyDevil117]

the back

[KurtA]

Made in Vietnam. Nice one!

[firefighter]

Nice patch.The 'real' ones are getting harder to find.

[JerseyDevil117]

Thanks guys for the comments. Can anyone tell me how you guys can tell if these fake or real? By pm would be the best for you to tell me.

[KurtA]

Thanks guys for the comments. Can anyone tell me how you guys can tell if these fake or real? By pm would be the best for you to tell me.

Unfortunately, there's no easy way. All I can say is study the originals posted on the Forum, and more importantly, study the fakes that are posted. Over time, you'll get somewhat of a feel for it. It's a never ending learning process. However, for me, It's gotten to the point that I rarely buy VN-made patches at militaria shows. It's too much of a mine field.

[firefighter]

I see them usually go for around $20, for that type of construction.Handmade a little more,Subdued less.U.S. 1st pattern twill around $15.It mail depends on who wants and how bad they want it.

[gwb123]

Thanks guys for the comments. Can anyone tell me how you guys can tell if these fake or real? By pm would be the best for you to tell me.

 

That is sometimes a tough question.

 

When I first looked at the front side of this patch, I was not sure if I was looking at a period original or one made in the USA post war.

 

Basically you have a patch that was made by hand guided sewing machine. That technique has been used by both the original shops in Vietnam and Korea, as well as repro artists.

 

However, the material on the backside would be correct for patches made in Vietnam during the war. Also, while the workmanship is a bit crude, the dimensions appear to be correct and the patch is fairly symetrical.

 

For now, I will vote that it is probably original. But this is a case of where I'd like to hold it in my hand and look it over personally before making the final call.

 

For what it is worth, there is a patch that is a 99% match to this in Michael Tucker's book "History on Their Shoulders: Unit Insignia of the Vietnam War." So we know other copies exist.

 

As for your broader question...there are often multiple variations of how patches were made in Vietnam. As noted, look at as many of them as you can either on this Forum, or in person at shows or in collections. After awhile, you will start to get a feel for how they should look. If you go to a show, even if you are not going to buy them, still ask the vendor (if he is not busy) if you could look at some of them.

 

On the flip side, also get to know what the known fakes look like. At first it seems impossible, but what you will learn that for all the fakes that have been made, there is a certain number of sources that they have come from. Check out the threads we have in the Fake Alert forum.

[JerseyDevil117]

Thanks for the help.

[all-bull]

Here is the back of the patch that is pictured in Tucker's book that Gil mentioned. It is exaclty the same as yours (while my picture is not as good as your scan), and made in Vietnam. I realize a lot of people are scared of collecting Vietnam because it's out of their "comfort zone". I'm scared to collect WWII and WWI because I feel like its a "minefield" like many WWII collectors would say about VN items, yet I feel fairly comfortable with Vietnam items. The key is being able to hold and touch and feel as many rock solid real items as you can, as with any area of collecting. Once you can feel a patch as being real, then you will you be able to see a real and right one from a mile away. there are always exceptions, but just because collecting a certain area of militaria is scary, doesn't mean one should just give up on doing it. collecting is suppposed to be challenging.

 

And as Kurt and Gil said, know the fakes. almsot to the point of knowing fakes better than real ones. That's why I really appreciate what Gil has done for the hobby.

 

As far as value on your patch, I would say $25-45

 

Hunter

[JerseyDevil117]

Thanks for all the great info hunter. Im also scared to collect ww1 patches. They all look the same to me. (fake/real ones) For some reason I have been really getting into these vietnam made patches. I think there pretty cool.

[Sabrejet]

If any collector (me included!) says they've never been burned then I would venture to suggest that they're being less than honest. This hobby, as you've obviously noted, has evolved into something of a "minefield" particularly in relation to alleged "theatre-made" patches. Most copies/fakes/repros...call them what you will...seem to originate in Asia whether it's Pakistan, Thailand or Vietnam etc., because the necessary embroidery skills are indigenous to their cultures. In the case of VN, we all know that "original" patches for western collectors are being made even as we speak! The trouble is, in most instances, such patches are being made on the same (or similar) machines using the same basic techniques/skills and materials as they were back in the day. Add a little "distressing" and it can be really difficult to positively ID a fake. Also, such patches can be honestly described as "Vietnamese made"....but made when?! The ideal source, of course, is directly from a vet who was "there", or from a reputable dealer who stands by what he sells. It's become a bit of a cliche, but the byword here is definitely Caveat Emptor!

[gwb123]

 

Most copies/fakes/repros...call them what you will...seem to originate in Asia whether it's Pakistan, Thailand or Vietnam etc., because the necessary embroidery skills are indigenous to their cultures.

 

In the case of VN, we all know that "original" patches for western collectors are being made even as we speak! The trouble is, in most instances, such patches are being made on the same (or similar) machines using the same basic techniques/skills and materials as they were back in the day. Add a little "distressing" and it can be really difficult to positively ID a fake. Also, such patches can be honestly described as "Vietnamese made"....but made when?!

 

 

Ian,

 

You've made some good points here, butI am going to respectfully disagree with with part of what you said about patches being made in Vietnam with the same machines and "using the same basic techniques/skills and materials as they were back in the day."

 

This is a statement that is often made among collectors. But from what I have seen the great majority of them are being made on computer controlled machines, using synthetic thread and base material. It is just a matter of the cost of labor. Even in Vietnam they are trying to do things as cheaply as possible.

 

You will find a few that use applicque technique, but again the thread and material are less than convincing.

 

Most of the completely hand made patches are using a thicker cotton thread than was used during the wartime period, which results in a more clumsy and less detail design. Very few of them are comparable to the originals.

 

As far as distressing, also known as artificial aging, this is also poorly done, typically with tea or coffee stains, or putting the patch in oven. Rarely does it duplicate the actual wear on a patch. Once you learn how to spot it, it stands out like a sore thumb, and actually has been the downfall of many an otherwise convincing fake.

 

There are a rare few that come close to the original work done in Vietnam (including some that have been made in Thailand). But much of the skill and workmanship has been lost.

 

Having said all of that, there are modern copies that still manage to fool even experienced collectors, myself included. That's why it is sometimes tough to make the call from photos alone.

[Sabrejet]

Yes indeed, I hear what you say Gil. However, the waters become further muddied by the actual age of the copies/repros. Ones produced in the last decade might well be computer generated. However, those made in the 80s and already potentially 30+ years old would have been created using the more traditional techniques. That's the problem we collectors now face across the board...old repros...which have been in existence long enough to acquire an authentic patina /fading/ wear and tear etc., all of which can make them much harder to detect!