My 112th RCT patch

[Patchcollector]

A view of the intricate wrapping around the hoof

[Patchcollector]

Here are some of my observations,the pattern of the "green"wool looks different on the front than it does on the back.

The border and the writing are done using a "rope" type border.

The stitching where the colored pieces are attached to the "green" wool all appear to be made by machine.

The workmanship is top notch,whoever made it seemed to know what they were doing.

[Patchcollector]

Well that's about it for the detail shots.Doyler,in answer to your question,I do not have a blacklight,so I cannot test it,but just from "eyeballing" it,everything seems to be of a natural source.

[KurtA]

 

 

 

Thanks again for your comments.I value honest and well meaning discussion about this issue. I do not think it is constructive to call something "crap like this",

or "junk",like some here have done.I know debates here can sometimes get a bit heated,but let's all try and act like Gentlemen and show some respect for others.

Saying this patch is made like something from an"arts and crafts " store is just wrong.

 

I was attempting to help you out. Sorry I didn't provide "honest and well meaning discussion".

[firefighter]

I don't think KurtA said anything wrong.His one comment, 'But the design is usually of silk, not felt from the local arts and crafts store'.He was just stating were the felt may have come from.And pretty much all of use, and possibly you, have used the word 'crap' to describe an item.I would be mad too if I paid over $300 for a reproduction.We are all here to help NOT make fun of the situation.As one of the other members stated, your time is running out for a dispute with eBay and pay pal.No mater how many close up pics you add or your reasoning of why you think it's original, it's still a fake.

[Patchcollector]

I don't think KurtA said anything wrong.His one comment, 'But the design is usually of silk, not felt from the local arts and crafts store'.He was just stating were the felt may have come from.And pretty much all of use, and possibly you, have used the word 'crap' to describe an item.I would be mad too if I paid over $300 for a reproduction.We are all here to help NOT make fun of the situation.As one of the other members stated, your time is running out for a dispute with eBay and pay pal.No mater how many close up pics you add or your reasoning of why you think it's original, it's still a fake.

 

 

Let's get a few things straight here.First,who is "we"?You've contributed nothing to this post in the way of useful information.Second,if you can find within this forum ANY place where I used words like "crap" to describe another members stuff,I will apologize to you and everyone here.Third,what reason does he got to be mad?He did'nt buy it!

And last but certainly not least,I'm not yet convinced it's a fake,no matter what anybody here says,or how high and mighty they purport themselves to be within the hobby.

If you are relying on just this forum to get your info,then I must say you are sadly in need of expanding your horizons.I get my info from many sources,the principle source of my info comes from people that I know locally,in my area that I can go to and speak face to face with,and they share their knowledge with me on an everyday basis,not just some faceless entity that is peddling their books or promoting themselves typing whatever they think is their opinion.I come here last,post my stuff to share with others,and this being a forum,everyone gets to add their opinion.Yes.Opinion.You may follow what is written in this forum like it is the word of god,but I don't.Nobody,and I mean nobody,here or elsewhere can state with absolute certainty that this patch is a modern reproduction.If they do,they are not being honest.Period.

[firefighter]

WOW. Somebody is full of anger.I have been collecting, selling and trading for 30 or so years.You can't say you've been a collector unless you've been burned on an item.I also do not depend on one site or person.All anybody is trying to do is help and give there opinion, and thats what they are, opinions from what we can see.I don't remember seeing anybody promoting themselves, book or website.And I never said you used the word 'crap' in this forum or anywhere.Please read as I said 'and possibly you'.I was just trying to say that KurtA was being miss quoted.As far as the 'mad' part I didn't mean to put the word 'too', just saying I would be mad, sorry about the confusion.We, the members of the forum, are, or suppose to be, adults.I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you or anybody on this forum.If you think it's an original then BRAVO to you for a quality find. Good luck with your future purchases.

[Patchcollector]

WOW. Somebody is full of anger.I have been collecting, selling and trading for 30 or so years.You can't say you've been a collector unless you've been burned on an item.I also do not depend on one site or person.All anybody is trying to do is help and give there opinion, and thats what they are, opinions from what we can see.I don't remember seeing anybody promoting themselves, book or website.And I never said you used the word 'crap' in this forum or anywhere.Please read as I said 'and possibly you'.I was just trying to say that KurtA was being miss quoted.As far as the 'mad' part I didn't mean to put the word 'too', just saying I would be mad, sorry about the confusion.We, the members of the forum, are, or suppose to be, adults.I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you or anybody on this forum.If you think it's an original then BRAVO to you for a quality find. Good luck with your future purchases.

 

 

Anger?So now you know how I feel emotionally?Look,just because I write a response to you does'nt mean I am angry.Perhaps you are attempting to project the way you feel onto me,but it is once again,an invalid interpretation.So you state that you have been selling buying,yada yada yada,30 years.What does that make you?Am I supposed to be impressed?What have you posted here,besides your occasional opinion.Anything of substance?Yes I agree about the adult part,that's why I wrote that people should be polite,and not use words like "crap" to describe anothers' stuff.This is an internet forum,nothing less,and nothing more.I urge each and every one that reads these words,to establish relationships with people in your local area,people with a knowledge of whatever you are into,that you can speak to face to face daily,that can look at your finds,and touch them in person.This should be everyones' principal form of exchanging information.Make certain that the people that you trust for your info have no agenda that they are pushing,and have no way to profit from the info that they do(or do not) give you.

[firefighter]

You are right.I was looking at the words you used and how you phrased them.For example why would you say, 'So you state that you have been selling buying,yada yada yada,30 years.What does that make you?Am I supposed to be impressed?.'.I didn't say to impress you or anybody else but that seems like a pretty personal attack.This is why I said 'angry'.I was just trying to say that I have been doing this for a long time and I am still learning new things.The Fakers are getting better. You also state,' What have you posted here,besides your occasional opinion.Anything of substance?'. Another reason for 'anger'.I guess you're not allowed to state something on a forum whether you agree with it or not, hmmm, ANGER.From 'Yes I agree... ' to the end is absolutely 100% correct.NO ONE should depend on one person or reference book/site.AGAIN I was just try to say that KurtA was being miss quoted.I do not project my feelings or opinions on anybody.We are getting off topic.I'll be the big person and end this.If you feel offended then I am truly sorry. To quote your quote, Don't let the B@stards wear you down -"Vinegar" Joe Stillwell

[Patchcollector]

So now you've proclaimed yourself the "big person"Wow,congratulations.You are continually bent on portraying your own sense of self importance by attempting to get me and others,to believe that what you are writing has made me angry.The truth is,for someone to make me angry,they would have to have some importance in my life.But I will answer your posts truthfully,and I will stand up for what I believe.

If my style of writing is viewed by you as a personal attack against you,I will once again say,I am only stating facts,and answering your posts.You continue to state the reason that you posted in the first place was because Kurt was misquoted.Where was Kurt misquoted?

[firefighter]

 

I'm done with you.You can believe what you want.Good luck with your life and collecting patches that I'm sure you'll sell as original because you are the one and true knower of all things military.All bow patchcollector you are truly wiser than the great OZ.Look at the post above I already showed you how he was misquoted in my original post from this morning.And as far as proclaiming myself the big man I can only assume you are not as I was trying to end this useless back and forth you said this oh my god I need to respond.Get back to the original part of this feed, about your reproduction 112th Cav patch. Changing the subject isn't going to make it an original. Bye.Cant say it was nice talking to you.PS, you win because I am truly done with you.

[mortaydc60]

If anyone can answer this question,please do:was this patch ever produced in a material other than silk,and was it ever produced in places other than Japan?

 

Almost affraid to enter this but want to answer the question. I have one identical to Bill Scots but mine also has a separate tab just with" raring to go". Have another that is fully embroided most likely Japanese and I have seen one from a well known collecter that he feels is Phillipine made and crude. Mort

[Patchcollector]

"I'm done with you.You can believe what you want.Good luck with your life and collecting patches that I'm sure you'll sell as original because you are the one and true knower of all things military.All bow patchcollector you are truly wiser than the great OZ.Look at the post above I already showed you how he was misquoted in my original post from this morning.And as far as proclaiming myself the big man I can only assume you are not as I was trying to end this useless back and forth you said this oh my god I need to respond.Get back to the original part of this feed, about your reproduction 112th Cav patch. Changing the subject isn't going to make it an original. Bye.Cant say it was nice talking to you.PS, you win because I am truly done with you. "

 

 

 

 

 

So,you've written me off.Wow.I'm shattered.With your pronouncement this patch is now officially a "repro".Tata and take care.BTW,it's a 112th RCT patch,just for the record.

OK,now that that insignificant diversion is gone,once again I'm going to state facts.I am not yet certain if this patch is a repro or not.I have not yet made up my mind,as the info that I have gathered

so far has not been sufficient to me to make my mind up one way or the other.That is where I stand.I would appreciate it if anyone can tell me if there are any known examples made from other materials besides silk for the main image.I know Bob stated what was in the ASMIC article,I'm just wondering if there are any not covered by the article.Thanks.

[Patchcollector]

 

Almost affraid to enter this but want to answer the question. I have one identical to Bill Scots but mine also has a separate tab just with" raring to go". Have another that is fully embroided most likely Japanese and I have seen one from a well known collecter that he feels is Phillipine made and crude. Mort

 

Thanks Mort,I think you and I just posted at the same time! Was the P.I one made from silk?

[36-tex]

I will sneak into this discussion softly. Could this be an original? YES

I personally have never seen one made like this, but that does not mean it is a repro. My gut feeling is it is not an original period patch. I do agree that the workmanship is quality however. Anyway, when it is all said and done YOU need to do what you feel is right for you.

I have PM'ed the author of the ASMIC article and asked him to chime in on this patch. Hopefully he will.

[Patchcollector]

I will sneak into this discussion softly. Could this be an original? YES

I personally have never seen one made like this, but that does not mean it is a repro. My gut feeling is it is not an original period patch. I do agree that the workmanship is quality however. Anyway, when it is all said and done YOU need to do what you feel is right for you.

I have PM'ed the author of the ASMIC article and asked him to chime in on this patch. Hopefully he will.

 

 

Thanks for the help Tex

[lamarhooten]

Maybe its time to go back to collecting DIs.

[firefighter]

Not that a black light is a sure bet but How does it react under black light?? Does the white glow??

 

 

I was going to stop posting but there's just something about that patch.I went and re-read every post on this patch.First did you ever check this under a black light? You never answered that question. Second.I also re-read the ASMIC article and looked at the pics.As stated before none of them look like yours.Your patch has an applied horse where the ones in the article appear to not have that.One of the patches is on felt but none on wool.Like stated above a BL reaction does not necessarily mean it's not period but chances are it's not.I looked thru a lot of books and there really are not a lot of pictures of the 112th RCT patch.

 

If it is a repro why isn't there more out there?Who know's maybe there are.Maybe this is the first one to float to the top? You had also asked before that maybe somebody cut the patch off a sleeve? In that case the patch would have been directly embroidered on to the sleeve, could have been but doubtful.

 

I and everyone else really wants this to be an original.Nobody wants to see a fellow collector taken advantage of.Military/patch collectors are one of the closet groups around.We share a lot of information amongst each other.

 

With that said sorry and maybe we can move on?

[firefighter]

Maybe its time to go back to collecting DIs.

 

 

LOL. This is just one reason why I like collecting military item's.Sometimes there is no right answer.Pins and patches have been made all over the world and as far as I know nobody has categorized every variation of every patch, pin or di.

[Patchcollector]

 

 

I was going to stop posting but there's just something about that patch.I went and re-read every post on this patch.First did you ever check this under a black light? You never answered that question. Second.I also re-read the ASMIC article and looked at the pics.As stated before none of them look like yours.Your patch has an applied horse where the ones in the article appear to not have that.One of the patches is on felt but none on wool.Like stated above a BL reaction does not necessarily mean it's not period but chances are it's not.I looked thru a lot of books and there really are not a lot of pictures of the 112th RCT patch.

 

If it is a repro why isn't there more out there?Who know's maybe there are.Maybe this is the first one to float to the top? You had also asked before that maybe somebody cut the patch off a sleeve? In that case the patch would have been directly embroidered on to the sleeve, could have been but doubtful.

 

I and everyone else really wants this to be an original.Nobody wants to see a fellow collector taken advantage of.Military/patch collectors are one of the closet groups around.We share a lot of information amongst each other.

 

With that said sorry and maybe we can move on?

 

 

I already answered the blacklight question.It's in the posts.I have also seen patches that were directly affixed to garments,such as jackets.The bottom line is that I have not yet made up my mind about this piece.Thanks for the apology but honestly,I don't really think that you have anything to apologize for,you spoke your mind as have all the others.

That's what a forum is about,right?

Discussions here can become heated at times,but I don't get angry,there's nothing wrong with spirited debate.What bothers me though is when some resort to referring to things as "crap",or some other insulting label.It is just not very classy.The old saying goes something like this"If you can't say something in a nice manner,then don't say it at all'Cheers & good patch hunting to you.

 

 

[mortaydc60]

 

Thanks Mort,I think you and I just posted at the same time! Was the P.I one made from silk?

 

 

The patch that was P.I. made was not in good shape as I remember and it was not silk but very thin material with micro swiss cheese holes or spaces in the cloth material. Mort

 

P.S. to find pics of this patch are as rare as the patch. Never saw one for sale at any price at an ASMIC or SOS show but have seen Alamo Scouts, T-Force,OSS wings,etc. Rarepatchman has shown us an example and wonder how many he has handled or seen.

[firefighter]

You should rally consider joining ASMIC.It's not that expensive and the 'Trading Post' is published 4 times a year.You can also buy back issues.I had a patch for almost 15 years, never knew what it was.I always thought it was a Navy novelty patch, 8 ball.Almost thought about getting rid of it.Couldn't find it in any reference book, and still can't, or an issue of the Trading Post'.Then one day I picked up an old issue of 'Militaria', a French magazine, and there it was.Turned out to be a very rare 8th Beach Landing patch.According to the article only around 500 were made.The first one I ever saw for sale was on eBay a few months ago, and I've had the patch since '85.So who knows maybe your patch is in the same boat as mine was.I'm just glad I never got rid of it.

[KurtA]

 

 

.What bothers me though is when some resort to referring to things as "crap",or some other insulting label.It is just not very classy.The old saying goes something like this"If you can't say something in a nice manner,then don't say it at all'Cheers & good patch hunting to you.

 

 

 

I find it highly ironic that you refer to the seller who stuck you with this fake as "a decent fellow" who is "polite and business-like." Meanwhile someone who tries to help you avoid a costly mistake is referred to as "not very classy."

Could someone on this Forum please tell Patchcollector that his patch is a "textbook one looker original" made from a rare felt, harvested only on the Philippine Island of Mindanao during the rainy season??? Then, having heard what he has been desperate to hear all along, he'll decide to keep the patch and we can end this trainwreck-of-a-thread.

 

Back to collecting DI's..........

[Bobby]

I dont know if this was posted or not but it is an old forum article on the 112th RCT..Has pictures of patches

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/68312-perhaps-ww2s-rarest-cav-patch-on-ebay-sold-for-713/

[Patchcollector]

 

I find it highly ironic that you refer to the seller who stuck you with this fake as "a decent fellow" who is "polite and business-like." Meanwhile someone who tries to help you avoid a costly mistake is referred to as "not very classy."

Could someone on this Forum please tell Patchcollector that his patch is a "textbook one looker original" made from a rare felt, harvested only on the Philippine Island of Mindanao during the rainy season??? Then, having heard what he has been desperate to hear all along, he'll decide to keep the patch and we can end this trainwreck-of-a-thread.

 

Back to collecting DI's..........

 

 

I'm only going by what I have heard from both the seller and some here.You said in an earlier post"My final comment on the subject is, "Don't force it to be real."

Yes that is true,but that is a two way street.I want to add to that"Don't force something to be fake until all avenues of possibilities have been explored."I'm still

trying to learn about this very rare patch before I make up my mind about it.You however,took one quick look at it,and proclaimed it to be a fake from the start.

I am the first to admit that I have alot to learn,and the more that I learn,the more I realize I still have much more to learn!I do not presume to have "seen it all",and unseen

varieties still turn up every now and then.It is evident that you have had it in your mind from the very beginning that this is not genuine,and you stated your opinion.

That's OK,this is a forum,where all opinions are welcome.There are two sides to every story,and the seller of this patch should be heard as well,don't you think?

That is why I have(finally) decided to include in this thread some correspondence that I received from him.I am going to edit it to omit specific names,but I think that this mans' side of this story needs to be told.

 

 

"I'm sorry you are not pleased with the patch. I'm disappointed that you rely on -------- for his so-called expertise. I was originally member #127 in the OVMS having joined in 1966, long before ------- was on the scene. I used to regularly set up as a dealer for decades. Not only is yours the first request for a refund since I've been on eBay (12 years) but EVER. I once asked ----------- to verify a patch at a show and his first question before answering was, "Where did you get it?". Not a valid first question for an 'expert' before giving his expert advice. A real expert has no need to consider who you got a patch from. There are plenty of other long-time collectors who have no need for his advice. I'll not go further with a discussion about him.The patch IS original, they were all hand-made, and not necessarily by the same person. Again, sorry for your disappointment."