My 112th RCT patch

[doyler]

^{Regarding the wool:}

^{Yes they may have gotten an old ike or 4 pocket and used it for a base material.Fakers are getting better.The WW1 fakers have been using WW1 uniform material for years.If they get good enough I can see where buying an old stripped jacket or moth eaten one would be worth while as they gain to make hundreds of dollars.I have seen WW2 era Army blankets meet the same fate.}

 

^{Were they patches made in other places or countries:Yes.Soldiers will be stationed from one country to another.I have seen one First Special Service Force Patch that is Japanese made.The vet was in during Korea and had it made.For wear or a novelty I dont know.I know one vet who had a tailor in Germany make every patch that was shown in the National Geographics issue with all the Divisional patches.All are in bullion and were made by a tailor who made insignias for the SS so the bullion,wire soutache and material were all period german WW2 uniform material.I have also seen a 113th Cav that was Japanese made.Shouldnt be but its a known example.}

 

^{This said could a 112th Cav be made in Europe.Very possible...but the one dicussed here I dont think is the case.Im no expert but have to agree with all of the advice you have been given.One thing I see when I look at the woo/felt used for the horse and the yellow back setting is a material that looks fairly modern and not what I would expect to see on a post war occupation produced european patch.I do not liking the over all looks of the material then the sloppy back embroidery on the reverse of the letters.THe wool felt material has that fuzz of more modern or synthetic made material}

[Patchcollector]

^{Regarding the wool:}

^{Yes they may have gotten an old ike or 4 pocket and used it for a base material.Fakers are getting better.The WW1 fakers have been using WW1 uniform material for years.If they get good enough I can see where buying an old stripped jacket or moth eaten one would be worth while as they gain to make hundreds of dollars.I have seen WW2 era Army blankets meet the same fate.}

 

^{Were they patches made in other places or countries:Yes.Soldiers will be stationed from one country to another.I have seen one First Special Service Force Patch that is Japanese made.The vet was in during Korea and had it made.For wear or a novelty I dont know.I know one vet who had a tailor in Germany make every patch that was shown in the National Geographics issue with all the Divisional patches.All are in bullion and were made by a tailor who made insignias for the SS so the bullion,wire soutache and material were all period german WW2 uniform material.I have also seen a 113th Cav that was Japanese made.Shouldnt be but its a known example.}

 

^{This said could a 112th Cav be made in Europe.Very possible...but the one dicussed here I dont think is the case.Im no expert but have to agree with all of the advice you have been given.One thing I see when I look at the woo/felt used for the horse and the yellow back setting is a material that looks fairly modern and not what I would expect to see on a post war occupation produced european patch.I do not liking the over all looks of the material then the sloppy back embroidery on the reverse of the letters.THe wool felt material has that fuzz of more modern or synthetic made material}

 

 

Thanks for your insight Doyler.Yes,the front of the patch does look "newer" than the back,which would seem to indicate a more recent manufacture.On the other hand,I have seen many old patches that look like they were made yesterday due to them being stored well,as in a scrapbook,or framed,etc...And this being a rare,desirable patch,I could see this one as being exceptionally well taken care of.

European made?Hmm,I had'nt given that much thought,I was thinking along the lines of Australia,perhaps even the P.I.That's why I am asking if any forum members here can say whether or not they know of any that were made outside of Japan,and of other materials than silk.I'm still hoping someone will be able to answer those questions for me!Maybe the "mysterious" author of the ASMIC article will come forth and reveal himself(although I'm not sure what the big secret about his identity is for! )

Thanks again for your comments.I value honest and well meaning discussion about this issue. I do not think it is constructive to call something "crap like this",

or "junk",like some here have done.I know debates here can sometimes get a bit heated,but let's all try and act like Gentlemen and show some respect for others.

Saying this patch is made like something from an"arts and crafts " store is just wrong.I tried to take good photos,but if anyone were to hold this in their hands and study it up close,they would immediately see that this is a superbly crafted patch,with amazing detail.I may post some close up detail pics later.About the "fuzzy" appearance of the yellow wool/felt material,that may be my fault;I'm kind of a clean freak,and when I received the patch I noticed there were some hairs and stuff on it,so I rubbed it a bit to remove the debris.

I did get a reply from the seller about this patch,and I am debating whether or not I should post it here.When I first wrote him I included a link to this post,and he read it.He knows some members here,says he has met and talked to at least one,and he wrote his opinion of them.If I do post his reply,it will be edited to exclude any references to names of individuals on this forum.

I still have until the 9th of January to return this,but I have not yet made up my mind as to whether or not I will do so,as I still have some more to learn about this patch,hence the questions about other materials and whether any were made outside of Japan.

[firefighter]

How are you making out with the seller? Can you tell us who the seller is?

[vintageproductions]

Okay, I think it comes down to this.

If you are happy with it, that is all that matters. Keep it, and enjoy it.

All the ones shown in the ASMIC article are Japanese made, and all have Japanese embroidered traits. This one shows no hint of Japanese craftsmanship.

When you post a piece like this on a public forum, be prepared to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly. If you don't like what other collectors are posting just ignore them. But, I will add, some of the poster's on here that have posted about this patch, are some of the most respected in this hobby. They offered you their opinion from years of experience.

[vintageproductions]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/112th-RCT-RARIN-TO-GO-PATCH-/121024485344?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2d9f17e0&nma=true&si=FZq%2FfvMFcnYjx5a41XeBpolIBT8%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

Here is the original listing on Ebay. If you go and check some of the sellers completed auctions, there are a lot of questionable WWI patches. Plus if you look at some of sold WWI patches they have the same construction as this 112th RCT.

I will say, the seller is sure getting some good prices, on some of their patches....

[Patchcollector]

How are you making out with the seller? Can you tell us who the seller is?

 

Here is a link to the sellers' eBay site:

http://myworld.ebay....E:X:CEM:US:1181

 

My correspondence with him has been polite and businesslike.

[Patchcollector]

http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557

 

Here is the original listing on Ebay. If you go and check some of the sellers completed auctions, there are a lot of questionable WWI patches. Plus if you look at some of sold WWI patches they have the same construction as this 112th RCT.

I will say, the seller is sure getting some good prices, on some of their patches....

 

 

Yes,and if you notice the buyers are not some newbies either.If you check the link to his eBay site that I put up,you can see some of the stuff he has sold,as it is recent,and there are still links to the patches,and their pics as well as the feedback left for them.

[doyler]

Viewing some of the other auctions I still have a concern about the wool felt.Does anyone else see the same type of puckering or wear to the felt??To me its like it has been processed or gotten wet or washed.I see this on many of the WW1 patches as well as the yellow felt of the 112th.Maybe its just me but why would patches made years apart by different individuals all exbit this type of wear to the wool??

 

Here is one that was sold as a USMC 4th Seperate Bn.The puckering or texture is seen on the red wool as well as on many of the other patches.Just makes me wonder.

 

 

 

[doyler]

Back.

 

Also notice the embroidery style of the white V.Many of the patches have the same characteristics.Something I would agree to if they were mass produced on a commercial machine making hundreds of patches but when these are to be all hand sewn WW1 patches there are to many with the same type of sewing style from units not even remotely related to each othe.I looked at some of the 34 Division ones sold in his past auctions.Again not seeing things I like and several of them have the same type mesh backing.Just really odd to me

 

 

[firefighter]

Saw that too.It didn't sell cheap either.

[Patchcollector]

Back.

 

Also notice the embroidery style of the white V.Many of the patches have the same characteristics.Something I would agree to if they were mass produced on a commercial machine making hundreds of patches but when these are to be all hand sewn WW1 patches there are to many with the same type of sewing style from units not even remotely related to each othe.I looked at some of the 34 Division ones sold in his past auctions.Again not seeing things I like and several of them have the same type mesh backing.Just really odd to me

 

 

 

 

 

I can't answer for him on his other stuff,maybe you should send him a message,he seems like a decent fellow.I did notice however,that his stuff gets alot of bids from

buyers that are seasoned,and not new,and he gets alot of money for his pieces.He sure seems to be "pulling the wool" over many peoples' eyes...

OK,if I had'nt had said it,someone surely would have!

[Patchcollector]

Doyler,I just noticed that the patch that you just posted a pic of seems to have been sewed onto something at some point.

[doyler]

I can agree to the patch being stored and cared for over the years as to its exceptional condition.I want to post this one here for an example.I got it more or less over 30 years ago.I was at an auction.Some collector was selling off his collection.

Uniforms,gear,helmets the works(I should have bought a ton of it)Anyway I bought a large cardboard box full of patches.A mix master of anything from WW2 to the 1970s,divisions,rank,ratings etc.Some items were removed from a book or from being glued to a board.In the mix was this squadron patch.I always figured it was a fake or collector made because of the condition and I had never seen one made like this.I didnt really care as I had less than $120 in 300 plus patches.Years later I spot this patch in the book Silver Wings Pinks and Greens.Same patch,same construction.I had stuck mine away in a drawer and left it.Here it is.I still have it.The thing is the colors on the front and the back are the same from being stored very well over the years prior to my aquiring it.THe patch I am speaking of is the one with the snake in the right corner.The other Rough Raiders came with it as well.I thought it was fake too.

 

 

[doyler]

Doyler,I just noticed that the patch that you just posted a pic of seems to have been sewed onto something at some point.

 

I noticed this as well.Several of the auction patches appear to be sewn on or removed.Its not the puckering of the edge I was pointing out mainly the puckering or rough texture of the wool.Just looks like it was processed and its noticable aon many of the patches offered.

[Patchcollector]

Yes that thing looks new!Very nice too.Some patches look new on the front and back,if they are stored in a drawer,like yours,or a place where both sides are protected.

I have seen many a patch that looks great on front,and then you turn it over and the back is full of glue and paper stuck to it from being in a scrapbook for years!

[Patchcollector]

I'm going to try and take some extreme close up photos of my 112th patch,it may take me an hour or so,but I will post them.

[doyler]

 

 

 

 

I can't answer for him on his other stuff,maybe you should send him a message,he seems like a decent fellow.I did notice however,that his stuff gets alot of bids from

buyers that are seasoned,and not new,and he gets alot of money for his pieces.He sure seems to be "pulling the wool" over many peoples' eyes...

OK,if I had'nt had said it,someone surely would have!

 

I viewed a lot of the past auctions and seen a lot of good prices on the patches sold.It reminds me of the auction of the

"Million Dollar"collection on ebay a couple years ago.I saw a lot of hefty prices paid on things that were not correct or pure fantasy.I recall the Mission to Moscow bullion.It went for well over a grand if I recall correctly and it wasnt legit.As the case often is people get caught up in the auction and bid with emotion rather than logic and even well established advanced collectors will let emotion over ride what their logic and expeiance tells them just to own that "gotta"have item

[doyler]

Not that a black light is a sure bet but How does it react under black light?? Does the white glow??

[vintageproductions]

Ron, your fighter squadron with the snake, I think that is the 79th or something like that, you know I think every one of those I have ever seen look just like that. I can't say that I have ever seen a used one....

[doyler]

Ron, your fighter squadron with the snake, I think that is the 79th or something like that, you know I think every one of those I have ever seen look just like that. I can't say that I have ever seen a used one....

 

Thanks Bob.I had forgotten the exact unit number.I have only seen a couple and this one is the only one I have had in hand and I agree they all look to have never been used/worn.I was really surprised it turned out to be real

[Patchcollector]

Here is the first of some close up pics,this shows the back,I tried to get the"puffiness" of the horse cutout,it is thicker as it is a cut out piece.

[Patchcollector]

Here is a view of the stitching,looks machine done

[Patchcollector]

Here is just an overall view,showing the precise shape of the horse piece

[Patchcollector]

A view of the top scroll lettering detail

[Patchcollector]

A border view