Help on Bayonet

[knd643]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me if this bayonet is orig ww2. It looks good to me but I am a begginer on bayonets and I know the forum is good for asking these types of questions. Thanks you.

http://www.ebay.com/...d=300835007300

[doyler]

Looks fine to me.

[knd643]

Looks fine to me.

Thanks, I figured it was.

[SpringfieldEdge - Wiltzius]

It is a legitimate WW II bayonet. If you are a beginning collector, you will find that many such bayonets are available on eBay and at gun shows. The bayonet in auction you are looking at is actually worth less than the scabbard. Bayonet would rate only fair. The scabbard is an early cut down M3, which you can tell by the crimping of the metal around the plastic. Later cut down scabbards had tabs that held the body to the throat assembly. Since collecting is all about condition and scarcity, you may want to consider learning a little more before you buy. Preference plays into collecting as well. Gary Cunningham has a nice book, simple to read and learn. Good hunting/collecting, Tom

[knd643]

It is a legitimate WW II bayonet. If you are a beginning collector, you will find that many such bayonets are available on eBay and at gun shows. The bayonet in auction you are looking at is actually worth less than the scabbard. Bayonet would rate only fair. The scabbard is an early cut down M3, which you can tell by the crimping of the metal around the plastic. Later cut down scabbards had tabs that held the body to the throat assembly. Since collecting is all about condition and scarcity, you may want to consider learning a little more before you buy. Preference plays into collecting as well. Gary Cunningham has a nice book, simple to read and learn. Good hunting/collecting, Tom

I was also considering this one what do you think on it. I think it is WW2 but it also says UFH on the back of the blade also. Sorry if that is common on bayonets made in the year 42 im still doing more research on it.

http://www.ebay.com/...d=p5197.c0.m619

[DSchlagan]

...The bayonet in auction you are looking at is actually worth less than the scabbard. Bayonet would rate only fair. The scabbard is an early cut down M3, which you can tell by the crimping of the metal around the plastic. Later cut down scabbards had tabs that held the body to the throat assembly...

IIRC the M3s that were cut-down for use as M7 scabbards, were originally re-configured, using the 'tabs-to-notch-cut' method; nearly identical as they would have appeared as M3s.

It was found that the 3X (total) of 'tab bending', often caused metal fatigue-failure, at that area of the tab.

 

The 'crimping method', was then, designed to alleviate this problem; therefore, most of the observed cut-down M3 scabbards will have the tabs removed, and are crimped.

 

Regards,

Don.

[DSchlagan]

I was also considering this one what do you think on it. I think it is WW2 but it also says UFH on the back of the blade also. Sorry if that is common on bayonets made in the year 42 im still doing more research on it.

http://www.ebay.com/...d=p5197.c0.m619

 

IMHO, you would have a much more desirable bayonet, in consideration of the O.L. (as listed in quoted/above eBay link).

 

There are several things 'going for it':

1. Much better condition ...for starters.

2. This bayonet was initially made as a WWII M1905 (16") and then cut-down* to M1 (10").

Oneida Limited also produced a lot less bayonets than many others. (IIRC, they are the second or third, least, in number of production figures.)

*[ANY production-year, from the very-beginning of the M1905 bayonet, when cut-down to the M1 length of 10", are most-generally referred to by collectors as "M1905E1s",]

3. It is 'blade-dated' "1942". The change-Order to 'straight' M1 production was actually implemented very early in 1943. Although M1905s were certainly still being produced fairly-well-into 1943, I cannot 'just-now' recall if any were actually/additionally blade-dated "1943".

4. Do Not be concerned, whatsoever, with the "UFH" marking on the right-side ricasso, either. Union Fork and Hoe, were simply the manufacturer that was responsible for the 'cut-down'. (You will find the maker responsible for the cut-down, sometimes either ricasso marked or grip-spine marked.

[Even the same 're'-maker, was known to have, used either method of marking location (esp. UFH).

5. I own a very similar M1905E1, O.L. 1942 (grip-spine-marked A.F.H.), that I purposely bought because I wanted this combination for my M1 collection.

 

The best, and never forget that we are ALL, still learning!

Kind Regards,

Don.

[knd643]

IMHO, you would have a much more desirable bayonet, in consideration of the O.L. (as listed in quoted/above eBay link).

 

There are several things 'going for it':

1. Much better condition ...for starters.

2. This bayonet was initially made as a WWII M1905 (16") and then cut-down* to M1 (10").

Oneida Limited also produced a lot less bayonets than many others. (IIRC, they are the second or third, least, in number of production figures.)

*[ANY production-year, from the very-beginning of the M1905 bayonet, when cut-down to the M1 length of 10", are most-generally referred to by collectors as "M1905E1s",]

3. It is 'blade-dated' "1942". The change-Order to 'straight' M1 production was actually implemented very early in 1943. Although M1905s were certainly still being produced fairly-well-into 1943, I cannot 'just-now' recall if any were actually/additionally blade-dated "1943".

4. Do Not be concerned, whatsoever, with the "UFH" marking on the right-side ricasso, either. Union Fork and Hoe, were simply the manufacturer that was responsible for the 'cut-down'. (You will find the maker responsible for the cut-down, sometimes either ricasso marked or grip-spine marked.

[Even the same 're'-maker, was known to have, used either method of marking location (esp. UFH).

5. I own a very similar M1905E1, O.L. 1942 (grip-spine-marked A.F.H.), that I purposely bought because I wanted this combination for my M1 collection.

 

The best, and never forget that we are ALL, still learning!

Kind Regards,

Don.

So i should get the Oneida Limited.I knew it was a original WW2 bayonet but I didnt realize that Oneida Limited made alot less bayonets so it made it much more valuble.Also i did not know that Union Fork and Hoe stamp on the back was put there because they were the ones that cut it down.Thanks for all the information this really helped me.

[SpringfieldEdge - Wiltzius]

Don, thanks for clarifying the early production processes for shortening the M7 scabbard to fit the M-1905E1 bayonet. I had been told just the opposite by an old collector friend who has passed on. Any chance you can point me to a quick reference? Thanks, and yes, we never quick learning! Best, Tom

[SpringfieldEdge - Wiltzius]

Don, thanks for clarifying the early production processes for shortening the M7 scabbard to fit the M-1905E1 bayonet. I had been told just the opposite by an old collector friend who has passed on. Any chance you can point me to a quick reference? Thanks, and yes, we never quit learning! Best, Tom

[SKIPH]

Springfieldedge-A good source to read is the site "US Military Knives, and Bayonets" our good friend Gary Cunningham has a lot of great information. Also Gary's book, "American Military Bayonets of the 20th Century", is another source. SKIP

[DSchlagan]

So i should get the Oneida Limited.I knew it was a original WW2 bayonet but I didnt realize that Oneida Limited made alot less bayonets so it made it much more valuble.Also i did not know that Union Fork and Hoe stamp on the back was put there because they were the ones that cut it down.Thanks for all the information this really helped me.

 

knd643,

 

Firstly, you are quite welcome.

[However, don't let me spend your money for you!]

 

Also, some collectors actually prefer the "saltier" (more battle-worn) condition items.

There are literally tens of thousands of M1 bayonets available; so might I suggest making reasonably certain that "whatever" your choice may be, that YOU will be happy with it.

 

CAUTION: Kinda like the potato chip advert goes; it is highly doubtful that you're gonna be able to stop at JUST ONE, ANYHOW!!

Enjoy!

 

****

 

While "O.L." M1905(E1)s are not necessarily all that extremely/comparatively rare*, you will find that the present condition (no matter whom the maker**), is what mainly determines the price, and/or value.

 

Also note, that on many of Oneida's WWII production items, they use the mark "O.C.L.", for "Oneida Community Limited"; not "Cutlery" either, as I have made that presumptive error, myself.

They were in fact a "Religious Community".

 

*[Additionally, O.L. produced an extremely limited number of "actual" M1s, so you might keep that in mind.]

 

**[The exception to this, is the much sought after "W.T." M1905(E1)s, (Wilde Drop Forge and Tool). They made a very small percentage of the total, thus they DO demand a premium.

They Did Not manufacture an "actual" M1, either.

 

Note that we, as collectors, make the observation of difference in 'separately referencing' the M1905E1 and the M1. ...After the 'go-ahead' was given, to cut-down to the 10" blade length, the Ordnance Department made NO such distinction; referring to both as the "Bayonet, M1".]

 

Regards,

Don.

[DSchlagan]

Don, thanks for clarifying the early production processes for shortening the M7 scabbard to fit the M-1905E1 bayonet. I had been told just the opposite by an old collector friend who has passed on. Any chance you can point me to a quick reference? Thanks, and yes, we never quit learning! Best, Tom

Springfieldedge-A good source to read is the site "US Military Knives, and Bayonets" our good friend Gary Cunningham has a lot of great information. Also Gary's book, "American Military Bayonets of the 20th Century", is another source. SKIP

 

Tom,

 

As SKIP relates, "our good friend [and Forum MOD: "bayonetman"] Gary Cunningham", is THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE individual on bayonets, that I can possibly refer!

 

We ALL owe him a HUGE DEBT of GRATITUDE, for his desire to share, his most remarkable WEALTH of EXPERTISE!!

My sincere thanks, Gary; as without your astonishing amount of research (and your most considerate desire to assist others); I would still be in the "Stone Ages", towards any regard of information, on U.S. Bayonets.

 

****

 

To answer your earlier question, Tom:

I am quite reasonably certain that the information, on 'where' I learned of the reference of 'tab bent -- versus crimped' converted, M3 to M7 Scabbards; was from Gary's book, "American Military Bayonets of the 20th Century".

Not able to provide "quick reference" as to 'exact page number', at present, as it is on loan. (One of my best friends has it, ...so will likely purchase another copy!)

 

Regardless, in referencing simple metallurgical properties, it follows as quite evident, that the bending of mild steel 'back-and-forth' several times, WILL RESULT in "metal fatigue-failure".

 

Regards,

Don.

[BriansBricks]

If you haven't bought one yet, a great source for bayonets would be the CMP, who carry the M1 as well as others for the Garand and Carbine for under $70.

 

http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/accessories.htm

[knd643]

If you haven't bought one yet, a great source for bayonets would be the CMP, who carry the M1 as well as others for the Garand and Carbine for under $70.

 

http://www.odcmp.com...accessories.htm

 

Do you know if the CMP ones are original WW2?