Some ordnance followed me home today. Grenade, complete 105mm, fuzes, etc.

[Dr_rambow]

I've been working on getting this 105mm from a guy here in Jersey for the past couple weeks. Finally figured out a date where I could come look at it and I was greeted with some cool and unexpected additional items when I arrived.

 

I know enough about this stuff to be dangerous, but I really don't know specifics. I'd love to know technical stuff like what kind of fuzes, rounds, projectiles, etc I have beyond the obvious caliber.

 

First, the reason I went, the 105mm shell! It has a M14 casing, a M60 projectile, plus a complete fuze. It looks like it has a significant amount of original grey paint as well.

 

 

 

Fuze that was on the round. "Delay" adjustment.

 

Most of it is actually hollow, the cone is stainless if I had to guess. You can't tell from the image, but the top of the aluminum(?) section on the bottom right is marked "scrap"

 

Bottom. What am I looking at here?

 

I got this far into the round and decided to stop... not sure what's down there... But I'm hoping it is nothing since this was marked "scrap" and I don't think anyone would want to toss an explosive into the furnace.

 

[Dr_rambow]

Here are the rest of the goodies. Three 37mm projectiles, two cased 20mm, several aluminum .50 projectiles with over-sized casings, one normal .50, and two unusual projectiles. The larger of the two is about 14mm and change.

 

 

The one on the left probably has the cone from the one on the right. Getting it off is going to be a pain... That being said, I don't know what kind of round the left one is.

 

Not matched to the above rounds, unless I am mistaken.

 

Interesting variety, no idea what the 2nd from left and right most rounds are. I'm not even sure about the function of the aluminum one on the left.

 

2nd 105mm fuze:

 

[Dr_rambow]

And finally, the thing you are all probably much more interested in, the grenade. Have to love that yellow paint I have an idea about the other stuff, but what do these kinds of grenades go for?

 

What is the function of the large hardware on the top? Much too large for the normal fuze?

[doyler]

Nice score Todd

[Dr_rambow]

Thank Ron!

 

And no, I can't spell. Damn this site for not spell checking the title. X(

[robinb]

Nice pile of goodies. The M16 37mm shells do go with the 2 projectiles. The yellow frag apperas to have an adapter for a rifle grenade fin assembly or some similar purpose. In your group picture with the frag, the 3 rounds above it are 60 caliber machinegun. Sort of an experimental aircraft gun, but the rounds do turn up. I have them dated 1943,44, and 45.

[Dr_rambow]

You think those oversized casings are for .60? The projectiles are about the same size as .50, but the casing is the size as 20mm. I'll have to get pictures of the head stamps for you. I actually figured it would be for aircraft (between the lightweight projectile and the extra propellant), but don't know any of the other details.

[ccyooper]

Dr. R,

The M43A5 fuze is a mechanical time fuze, used on 3 inch, 90mm and 105mm rounds, ie. it is not an impact fuze. The frag grenade looks like it will fit on the base of the M17 rifle grenade. I believe the section sticking out of the grenade is the booster section. You need the firing pin and stabilizer sections to complete the round. I believe you are correct on the nose cap for the round top left. I believe it belongs on the other round. The other rounds are M51B1, shot, armor-piercing cap. 37mm. They are used in anti-tank gun M3A1 or tank guns M5A1 and M6.

 

The other round is either an HE or traing round. Based upon the rings on the round I suspect it was a training round.

 

I hope that helps a bit as I am no expert on ordnance.. by the way if you are thinking of finding a new home for the grenade type round I am interested.

 

Regards,

CC

[pzjgr]

The .60 cal machine gun used a 20mm case necked down to .60 cal....it was a round and gun combination that was tinkered with from the early to mid 40's to the mid 50's, but never really gained traction.Here is some info...

 

60 Caliber = 15.24mm.

 

U.S. .60" T17 Cartridge is 15.2 X 114mm.

 

The machinegun which fired it was the A64 Gun machine. Cal. .60 T17E3

 

From 'Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45' by Emmanuel Gustin and Tony Williams

 

"The Americans constantly searched for higher muzzle velocities in their HMGs, producing experimental weapons mainly based on the Hispano (T18 series) or MG 151 (T17 series) cannon. The T18s were adapted to 15 mm or .60" calibre, but the conversion turned out to involve too much work so they were dropped. The T17 was developed to accept the US Army's experimental .60" anti-tank cartridge (15.2x114) in a project which started in 1942 and continued until 1946, achieving orders for up to 5,000 weapons and production of about 300, none of which saw service. The T17E3 weighed 61 kg and achieved only 600 rpm; the T17E5 reduced the weight to 58 kg and speeded up the mechanism to 700-750 rpm. There was also a Johnson short-recoil design chambered for both the 20x110 HS 404 round and the necked-down 12.7x120 high velocity version (.50" HV), but this was equally unsuccessful.

 

The ammunition used by these weapons was impressively powerful for the calibre. The .50" HV achieved over 1,220 m/s with a 46 g bullet, the .60" anti-tank cartridge fired a 76 g bullet at 1,100 m/s, and a necked-down .50" version (12.7x114) propelled a 43 g bullet at 1,200 m/s, or 32 g at 1,340."

 

As a matter of interest, the .60 cartridge was also used in some postwar designs, namely the Vulcan rotary and the revolver cannon which became the M39, but it was rejected in favour of a necked-out version of the cartridge - the 20x102 - which is still in use today in the M61 Vulcan and various other guns.

 

There were a myriad of projectiles developed, from simple gilding metal cased lead to semi- and armor piercing...some had a copper base cup, some had miniature driving band set ups...

 

They aren't common....good finds...

[Dr_rambow]

Thanks guys! I really had no idea what the .60 was, I appreciate the information! I only have one .60 projectile with no case unfortunately.

 

The necked down casings are for .50, so what are those? The projectiles are not aluminum as I first thought (they stick to a magnet), but seem to be some kind of stainless material or some other treated steel.

 

 

 

I gave some TLC to several rounds, even managed to get the cone off of the peculiar 37mm. Two 20mm, the .60 and another odd .50

 

 

The case on the left most 20mm is odd, almost looks machined after the fact to seat the projectile.

 

Speaking of the peculiar 37mm, any other ideas about that one? After a good cleaning, it actually fits the cone as well as the others.

 

 

 

[KABAR2]

Nice finds! with the variety of items I wonder if this is a collection of stuff brought home from Picatiny Arsenal years back.......

that is a very interesting 37mm projo with the pre-rifled grooves cut into the shell itself.... I have been collecting ordnace for

years and that is the first one of these I have seen..... the projo that is inbetween the 20mm and the .60 is probably for one of

the early AA guns the navy replaced with the 40mm during the war I think they were a 1.1"? we gave them to the Britts lendlease....

[Inertord]

The grenade body and attachment are from an Early US M17 Rifle Grenade.

 

 

 

 

 

[chrishoon]

yellow means high explosive

[manayunkman]

That grenade is very interesting.

[Dr_rambow]

Seems I picked a winner

 

As I said, I was anticipating just the 105, but I was pleasantly surprised to see the other items.

 

KABAR2, I was thinking the same thing. There are quite a few things that a unusual, so having them all in one little group is interesting to say the least.

 

[gearsource]

Those time fuzes are neat, almost elegant.

Are they made of brass?

[Dr_rambow]

Sections certainly are made of brass. The one that is loose (didn't come with the 105) is brass with a sheet metal cone. The one on the 105 appears to be made mostly of aluminum or stainless along with the brass nose piece and interior components.

I think these big fuses are marvels of engineering, especially since they were built en-mass as ammunition. I'm hoping to find some earlier rounds with those magnificent all brass fuses. I have a WWI shrapnel shell with an all brass fuse, and it is one of my favorites.