What! You want ME to wear shorts?

[Wailuna]

Judging from the look of dismay on his face, the sergeant on the right has just heard some disturbing news from the other fellow. This distressing scene took place at Ft. Benning ca. 1957.

 

[1SG_1st_Cav]

Yes, the Army did wear Khaki Shorts and shirts, with British style knee socks. I was issued those, and graduate from Basic Training at Ft Knox in them from February to April 1960. We were still wearing those until I think 1 July 1963. Danny

[vostoktrading]

Maybe the guy on the left just said "You've just been attached to the Marines".

[Wailuna]

...Yes, the Army did wear Khaki Shorts and shirts, with British style knee socks. I was issued those, and graduate from Basic Training at Ft Knox in them from February to April 1960. We were still wearing those until I think 1 July 1963. Danny...

The Army Khaki (abbreviated) uniform came on line in 1956 and it was only a partial success. The shirt was a big hit among troops as short sleeves and no necktie were major comfort enhancements in hot climates. Short sleeve khaki shirts stayed on the books until 1985 but the “trousers, knee length” (as they were called) faded away sometime around the mid-1960s. My own last experience with “trousers, knee length” was in Mississippi in 1962 when I wore mine to the beach when off duty and as I recall my khaki shorts were AWOL from my barracks when we moved at the end of that summer. Judging from the uniform regulation the abbreviated khakis obviously created something of an identity crisis for the Army, as shown from this excerpt covering “occasions for wear”:

 

(source: AR 670-5, September 28, 1959)

[Sabrejet]

I wonder what's under that sun helmet?!

[patches]

The Army Khaki (abbreviated) uniform came on line in 1956 and it was only a partial success. The shirt was a big hit among troops as short sleeves and no necktie were major comfort enhancements in hot climates. Short sleeve khaki shirts stayed on the books until 1985 but the “trousers, knee length” (as they were called) faded away sometime around the mid-1960s. My own last experience with “trousers, knee length” was in Mississippi in 1962 when I wore mine to the beach when off duty and as I recall my khaki shorts were AWOL from my barracks when we moved at the end of that summer. Judging from the uniform regulation the abbreviated khakis obviously created something of an identity crisis for the Army, as shown from this excerpt covering “occasions for wear”:

 

 

(source: AR 670-5, September 28, 1959)

 

Wailuna, would it be correct in saying that only AG44 Garrison Caps, Service Caps, Black Web Waist Belt, Black Shoes, as well as the new Gold on Army Green Enlistedman's Rank insignias in this EARLY period of wear of the Abbrevated uniform were the only prescribed headgear and accoutrements to be worn? no Khaki caps OD belts?

 

I say this as I, and probably everyone else has only seen AG44 & Black items being worn with this uniform, 1956-57 (that they would be worn after 1958 is well established and well known) Of note is the fact that the NCO in the long sleeve shirt is still wearing either the WWII era OD on Black wool chevrons or the M1951 OD on Blue Twill Chevrons, his colleague in the Abbrevs is wearing Gold on AG.

[Wailuna]

Wailuna, would it be correct in saying that only AG44 Garrison Caps, Service Caps, Black Web Waist Belt, Black Shoes, as well as the new Gold on Army Green Enlistedman's Rank insignias in this EARLY period of wear of the Abbrevated uniform were the only prescribed headgear and accoutrements to be worn? no Khaki caps OD belts?

 

I say this as I, and probably everyone else has only seen AG44 & Black items being worn with this uniform, 1956-57 (that they would be worn after 1958 is well established and well known) Of note is the fact that the NCO in the long sleeve shirt is still wearing either the WWII era OD on Black wool chevrons or the M1951 OD on Blue Twill Chevrons, his colleague in the Abbrevs is wearing Gold on AG.

Well, Patches, "yes," "no" and "maybe."

 

As to your first question regarding khaki uniform "accessories" read the following note that comes at the end of the Section VIII -- Army Khaki Uniform (covering both "conventional" and "abbreviated" styles):

 

 

As to your second question regarding chevrons on khaki uniforms, gold on AG stripes officially came on line in 1958 for NCOs and PFCs and in 1955 for specialists, read this exception for NCOs that appears in the 1959 edition of AR 670-5:

 

 

Note: The transition date for NCO grades E-5 through E-7 was later pushed to June 30, 1968.

 

So, what is going on between these two sergeants? Here is a WAG for you: It is late 1958 or early 1959 and the grinning Master Sergeant wearing the new gold and AG chevrons has just told his old buddy he was promoted to E8 today and he is now Sergeant Major of 2nd Bn., 30th Inf. (as E9s weren't made until April 1959). The astonished 1st Sergeant, who is still an E7 and continues to wear his OD on blue chevrons, just can't believe that his old pal has pulled ahead of him.

[patches]

Thank You Wailuna.

[gitana]

"Heyyyy, wait a minute. That lamp wasn't talking to me, it was YOU!"

[Wailuna]

...Thank You Wailuna...

This picture is somewhat related to your earlier questions, Patches, as it shows how “mixed” uniform and insignia combinations occurred during the Army Green transitional period. The unit is Headquarters, Tank Co, 3rd Bn, 14th ACR, at Bad Hersfeld, Germany, ca. 1956. Observe that the enlisted men pictured here are wearing OD service uniforms as would be expected and note that the NCOs (seated in the front row) are all wearing OD on blue chevrons and hash marks, also as to be expected. But the specialists and privates in the back row (with their coat sleeves obligingly turned our way) are wearing gold on AG chevrons (too bad we can’t see any hash marks in the rear rank, eh?) In fact, specialist chevrons were gold on AG from the outset and this combination was their only option whereas NCOs had to wait until 1958 before their AG pattern chevrons were generally available (but how about the PFCs we see here?) As the OD uniform was optional for enlisted men until October 1960, We should be able to find photographic evidence of gold and AG NCO chevrons appearing on OD sleeves late in the game and, most particularly, for EM promoted from corporal or specialist 3rd class to sergeant after May 31, 1958. This sounds like a worthy search.

 

(Note too that officers started wearing AG service hats with “Pinks and Greens” during the transition.)

[patches]

Good shot there Wailuna. Here's another one for everyone, Elvis's platoon in West Germany, note two men are still wearing the Ike, while everyone else wears the new AG44 set up.

 

Elvis Presley : Scout Platoon, Headquarters, 32nd Armor Regiment, 3rd Armored Division

 

 

Friedberg, Germany - 1958

 

Staff Holder at Front: PFC Richard A. Rehm. First Row (left to right): Sgt George K. Apo, Sgt Lewis Perry, Jr., SFC Aaron C. Owenby, Sgt Marshall W. Penn, 1st Lt Richard L. Coffman, PSG Billy G. Wilson, SFC Robert L. Banks, Cpl Stanley P. Howie, Sgt Travis E. Colson. Second Row: Sp4 Hal L. Miller, PFC Leonard C. Smith, PFC Elzear J. Ricard, PFC Michael M. Wittmair, Sp4 Robert E. McDaniel, Sp4 Andrew W. Stiller, PFC Alien R. Johnson, Sp4 Constantine Ewka. Third Row: Sp4 Berlin C. Edgmon, PFC John B. LaFata, Sp4 Elvis A. Presley, PFC Lawrence C. O'Brien, PFC Vern W. Emmons, Sp4 Patrick D. Conway. Not Pictured: Sp4 James W. Reil, PFC Gerald D. Capps, PFC Donald L. Howard, PFC Roger D. Bevre, PFC David E. Bailey, Sgt Morgan L. Tittle, Sgt Herman C. Coen, Sgt Durell Tyier, Pvt Archie Collins, Pvt Manfred Kirchner, PFC John M. Hines, Pvt Larry R. Roberts, Pvt Wilbur F. Gutherie, Pvt Carlos M. Gutherie, PFC Robert W. Garrett, SFC James C. Bosworth.

Sp4 Elvis Presley (top row, 3rd from left)

[Sabrejet]

Great pic...not seen that one before Kevin. As Elvis would say..... "Thanguverrimuchsir"

[Wailuna]

...Here's another one for everyone, Elvis's platoon in West Germany, note two men are still wearing the Ike, while everyone else wears the new AG44 set up...

Good catch, Patches: You have posted a picture worth at least 168 words (by actual count) and one that is very revealing in its details of the AG transitional period. For instance, if we stipulate that the author of the caption was following proper nomenclature for the rank of the NCOs in this picture, the three identified as “Sgt” in the front row are old system sergeants (E-5s), and not new system staff sergeants (i.e., E-6s). And the “PSG” is a new system platoon sergeant (i.e., E-7) and not a SFC (E-6 and/or E-7). But what about the two NCO’s identified as “SFC” (Owenby and Banks)? Are they E-6 and/or E-7? And take note, if you will, that we see no new system three-stripe buck sergeant (E-5) chevrons here. What will be most interesting to see in this context is a newly made buck sergeant wearing wearing OD uniform with new system gold on AG chevrons…after all, three-stripe OD chevrons went extinct in 1948. The chase is on!

[patches]

I don't know Wailuna it would seem the old Buck Sergeant Stripes were worn again as early as 1953

 

[Wailuna]

I don't know Wailuna it would seem the old Buck Sergeant Stripes were worn again as early as 1953

 

Klinger was out of uniform. So? He should have stuck to skirts:

 

 

Next thing we know, someone will claim that Elvis Presley was a staff sergeant:

 

[patches]

Wow, is this the first time this photo has been posted? I may be wrong and missed it, but I don't think even Sabrejet posted this one and he's posted a ton of Elvis in the Army photos. A great photo, must have right after, he was promoted to E-5, he would have to put the new E-5 stripes on as soon as they became available. You know it might sound far fetched but this opens up another question come to think of it, on the fatiques or Khaki long sleeve shirt ( not AG44 Class A coat) would any E-5s in lieu of receiving or aquiring the new Gold on Army green E-5 buck sergeant stripes, simply wear, however brief, the WWII types? Have you or anyone ever seen or heard this? OD on Black wool being the most ideal.

[Wailuna]

The above pix. are probably fakes (as in Photoshopped) but Sgt. Presley did in fact wear repurposed staff sergeant stripes while he was on active duty. Here is a picture (that has been posted on the Forum many times) which clearly shows Elvis wearing buck sergeant chevrons that were cut down from staff sergeant chevrons (which is not to deny that Elvis did wear staff sergeant chevrons on his infamous Army Blue uniform after he was discharged).

 

 

Still looking for that pix. of a buck sergeant wearing AG chevrons on OD Ike ca. 1960 --- it is out there somewhere.

[patches]

I would say your right about those two photos of Elvis wear the S/Sgt stripes, it is known that he was promoted in February 1960, I guess it would be enough time I would think from the NCO grade restructure of Ar 670-1 of 28 September 1959 for newer chevrons to be either issued out or in the case of of Elvis cutting up the AG44 " S/Sgt,SFC, or M/Sgt stripes, and not wearing the old E-5 ranks, ie the new S/Sgt ranks

[patches]

Great pic...not seen that one before Kevin. As Elvis would say..... "Thanguverrimuchsir"

 

Yeah, I posted it up in YOUR GI Blues Display Topic, in the Displays Forum But you might of missed it because I had trouble posting the photo (didn't know how to resize images then) so i just posted the link

[Wailuna]

…Wailuna, would it be correct in saying that only AG44 Garrison Caps, Service Caps, Black Web Waist Belt, Black Shoes, as well as the new Gold on Army Green Enlistedman's Rank insignias in this EARLY period of wear of the Abbrevated uniform were the only prescribed headgear and accoutrements to be worn? no Khaki caps OD belts?…I say this as I, and probably everyone else has only seen AG44 & Black items being worn with this uniform, 1956-57 (that they would be worn after 1958 is well established and well known)…

 

...As to your first question regarding khaki uniform "accessories" read the following note that comes at the end of the Section VIII -- Army Khaki Uniform (covering both "conventional" and "abbreviated" styles):

 

 

In the interest of getting back on topic and of providing a pertinent illustration of the “full-khaki” version of the Army’s short uniform, here is a lieutenant wearing one such uniform, ca. July 1956, (clipped from a picture for sale on line and posted at the Forum for non-commercial educational purposes only.)

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BS-PHOTO-acm-668-Baltimore-Sun-Photo-US-Army-Uniforms-1956-/370692023583?pt=Art_Photo_Images&hash=item564ef7651f

 

[patches]

In the interest of getting back on topic and of providing a pertinent illustration of the “full-khaki” version of the Army’s short uniform, here is a lieutenant wearing one such uniform, ca. July 1956, (clipped from a picture for sale on line and posted at the Forum for non-commercial educational purposes only.)

 

 

 

Once again you've outdone yourself Mr Holmes

 

Excellent Wailuna, another great find.

 

NOW find a photo with a Khaki Officer or Enlistedmens Service Cap being worn, that will sew this up for sure if we see that

[Wailuna]

Here is another early sighting of the abbreviated Khaki uniform ca. July 1956. Note that this SFC (who was an E-6 during these pre-Super Grade times) appears to be wearing new pattern gold on green chevrons well before the Army Green uniform itself was authorized for optional wear commencing on October 1, 1956. Does anyone have photographic evidence of AG-type NCO chevrons on the hoof before July 1956? And are those shoes black or simply a very dark shade of russet?

 

 

(This entry was clipped from a picture for sale on line and posted at the Forum for non-commercial educational purposes only. Link here.)

[patches]

Here is another early sighting of the abbreviated Khaki uniform ca. July 1956. Note that this SFC (who was an E-6 during these pre-Super Grade times) appears to be wearing new pattern gold on green chevrons well before the Army Green uniform itself was authorized for optional wear commencing on October 1, 1956. Does anyone have photographic evidence of AG-type NCO chevrons on the hoof before July 1956? And are those shoes black or simply a very dark shade of russet?

 

 

 

(This entry was clipped from a picture for sale on line and posted at the Forum for non-commercial educational purposes only. Link here.)

 

Wailuna, just a thought, is it possible he's wearing these types, we do know these types were still being seen, being worn by some on every type of shirt and jacket, dress or field during the 50s.

 

[Wailuna]

...is it possible he's wearing these types, we do know these types were still being seen, being worn by some on every type of shirt and jacket, dress or field during the 50s....

 

 

Yes, very possible. It is difficult to tell in black and white but you are correct that it was pretty much "anything goes" with NCO chevrons during the 1950s (and well into the 1960s). Here is another sergeant wearing standard issue OD on blue stripes with his abbreviated khaki uniform in the summer of 1959. This would have been the expected chevron until all the old timers switched to AG chevrons (see post #1 above) and here we see these obsolete chevrons being worn with the AG garrison cap and black shoes and waist belt. Now you can keep your eye peeled for some old soldier still wearing his unauthorized khaki on khaki chevrons.

 

 

(This entry was clipped from a picture for sale on line and posted at the Forum for non-commercial educational purposes only. Link here.)

[patches]

Yes wailuna B/W photos can be a pain in the you know what when it comes to researching, but that,s all we have to go on in the overwhelming, if not all the cases, not that I,m complaining, we are fortunate every time we can find photos from those days.