Jump to content

WWII M3 Grease Gun Magazine Case?


Constabulary
 Share

Recommended Posts

Here is a little something I noticed about Thompson magazine bags I thought I would add to this thread. Now I am not sure of this theory mainly because I do not have an M3 magazine to test it but here it goes. In the photo I posted below are 3 Thompson magazine bags from my collection - The bag on the left is made by Boyt, the one in the center is made by H&C and the one on the right is made by Hoosier - all dated 1942. The Boyt and H&C bags are the same dimensions but the Hoosier bag is made deeper. I know 1942 is early for the M3 but since it was on the drawing board could it be they started to order these bags made deeper to hold M3 mags? (or is it just a manufacturers variation?) Again, not sure of this because I do not know how much taller the M3 mag is over the Thompson mag but I thought I would throw it out there for discussion.

 

Rob

 

Rob,

 

The Thompson magazine measures 22cms, while the M-3 magazine measures 26cms. This does not allow for the projection of the .45 cal. rounds as final load of each type magazine. There is absolutely NO way that a full complement of M-3 mags will fit into a Thompson pouch. Jack Angolia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Thompson bags were enlarged, slightly, because of reports from the field (i.e. North Africa and maybe Sicily) that they shrank a bit with exposure to wet weather and drying in the hot sun. They were tight already and shrinkage meant the snap could not be closed, hence the mags came out and they got dust and sand inside more. The simple solution was to make the bags a bit longer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...
Johan Willaert

So last week I picked up this M3 SMG Ammo Bag which seeing its construction of dark OD canvas with light borders and strap might be late WW2...

 

What threw me off is the paper label which was included with the bag...

 

So if these were Ordnance Dept bags, why the QM marking??? How about ArmoUr instead of Armor??? And a July 1944 date...

 

The paper of course doesn't take away anything from the bag, but I'm just wondering of the paper is a sales trick (as I suspect) or genuine???

 

It seems ARMOUR SMALLBERG Inc still exists in Philadelphia...

post-92-0-62251100-1383393732.jpg

post-92-0-60991800-1383393739.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe the Ordnance Department did not have inspectors qualified in examining items of canvas load-bearing equipment and left the inspecting to the Quartermaster Department.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Johan,

 

Great case.

 

Check out pages 27-29 of an article Mike Ellis wrote on the M3. http://90thidpg.us/Research/Original/M3intheETO/index.html

 

 

Earliest documentation (in a manual) we found for its issue was in TM 9-759: TANK, MEDIUM, M4A3 September 1944. There are a couple of photos of the pouch in use in the article.

 

I'm of the belief that the D series marked cases are WW2 and the 7 series cases are postwar.

 

Chris-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Johan Willaert

Thanks Chris!

 

Contrary to what the article says and my other bag, the D-90242 marking on this one has a hyphen and the markings are stencilled rather than printed or painted...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always figured that the ( GP) general purpose bag took the place of the Tompson and or M3 grease gun clip bag? To standardize a malty purpose bag you see the early Tompson/ M3 clip bags dated 1942 & 1943 then the (GP) bags start showing up in 1943-1945

 

What's odd is you see the Thompson bags done up again during Vietnam I'm guessing the supplies were low and Thompson reissued and they needed the bag again.

 

Craig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I picked up this one a while back. Painted markings like the one Johan first posted. It is in mint condition with a sewn tag inside the bag. Made by Hinson, a well-known contractor during WWII.

 

001_zps37fd75e7.jpg

 

64cab555-38bd-4cad-99fe-512c8ef0386f_zps

 

Carl

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi carl

 

I have a Hinson made one too with the typical WW2 maker markings ?

 

But i was always told it was post war

 

regards

 

Lloyd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would have to say that your 45 clip bags with markings on the front are post WWII even thought it's Hinson marked ! JQMD, & S. Froeligh Co, just to name a few were large suppliers of WWII field gear and they also did field gear for the Korean War
If you study post WWII field gear or the Korean War dated field gear you will notice that all the canteens, cartridge belts, M45 pack, first aid pouches the markers name, date and model information, quarter masters numbers were added to the ink stamp! I have a 1952 canteen cover ink stamp reads (COVERS CANTEEN DISMOUNTED M-1910 74.0.300 CONCORD 1952
If you compare the WWII m45 pack to the Korean War dated pack they are the same pack but their is a ton more information on the Korean War as just the markers mark & date ink stamp on a WWII pack
The khaki canvas field gear is WWII ? and my answer in not always! Hinson made hunting gear before and after WWII . I live a hour and half away from Waterloo, Iowa and this area were I live is a big hunting area! and back in the 1940 's the canvas was always khaki or tan because the hunting time is always fall of the year so D. O green canvas was not a hunting shade used, this O D was made up more for the summer colors also their was some left over khaki canvas from WWII and used for Korean War field Gear.
I have a what I thought was a WWII helmet liner with khaki webbing in it but if you look at the molded markings on the inside it is dated 1953 also I have a Garand sling dated 1951 it too is khaki.
As said at the other post the WWII Thompson clip bags were phased out in 1943 and the GP bag took its place in 1943. I think after WWII the M3 grease gun need a bag also the less used Thompson so they started making them again, they are the same construction as a GP bag as extra webbing was stitched down along the sides but they had the divider cells added on the insides.
As with the WWII GP bag the lower ranking GI's were stuffing them with anything and everything with many different types of ordnances, the problem with this is the primers could be hit & pins pulled out of grenades by just falling on the bag or dropping it and I think the Army knew this so that's why it didn't make a come back after WWII
My father was station in Europe during the Korean War and it was a hot spot because the US Gov. was thinking the Reds were going to invade Europe so my father said the were always on high alert and their was hundreds of thousand GI's stationed their. He said he would walk guard with the M3 grease gun it was some much lighter than the Thompson so that is why these guys in Europe are finding the post war bags
In my photo the top sling is the OD 1944 the next one down is the MRT July 1951 khaki sling and the bottom is MRT 5/51 OD sling just to show not all is OD
Craig

 

 

post-7997-0-46081800-1383792203.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"If you study post WWII field gear or the Korean War dated field gear you will notice that all the canteens, cartridge belts, M45 pack, first aid pouches the markers name, date and model information, quarter masters numbers were added to the ink stamp! I have a 1952 canteen cover ink stamp reads (COVERS CANTEEN DISMOUNTED M-1910 74.0.300 CONCORD 1952
If you compare the WWII m45 pack to the Korean War dated pack they are the same pack but their is a ton more information on the Korean War as just the markers mark & date ink stamp on a WWII pack."
So here's a war-time dated shovel cover with more than the usual markings. Seems that your theory has a hole in it.

 

 

 

 

MVC-001S.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your shovel cover is made right at the end of the war or after the war ended? Sept , Oct or so on in 1945? I've seen September 1945 rain coat QM tags on a rain coats before. The field gear contractors were still making field gear after the war ended to complete the contracts.

The stock numbers here on your cover is first time a numbering stocking system is being set up and used to help the Army quarter master supply system to correctly identiy it's proper type field gear when being ordered or issued, remember the t handle shovel was still being used. This marking stocking system is same type being used on those M3 bags and if they were being made at the end of the war them why aren't they dated 1945?

 

I have a 1945 Ames dated shovel / pick combo ever seen any of them in war time images? I think this was up grade after the war ended? It also puts a hole in the theory above about the M3 / Thompson bags, your shovel cover is dated those M3 bags aren't

 

 

Craig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The stock numbers here on your cover is first time a numbering stocking system is being set up and used to help the Army quarter master supply system to correctly identiy it's

Craig

1942 date leggings

post-56-0-62079400-1383803622.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your shovel cover is made right at the end of the war or after the war ended? Sept , Oct or so on in 1945? I've seen September 1945 rain coat QM tags on a rain coats before. The field gear contractors were still making field gear after the war ended to complete the contracts.

The stock numbers here on your cover is first time a numbering stocking system is being set up and used to help the Army quarter master supply system to correctly identiy it's proper type field gear when being ordered or issued, remember the t handle shovel was still being used. This marking stocking system is same type being used on those M3 bags and if they were being made at the end of the war them why aren't they dated 1945?

 

Craig

I assume your meaning that a numbering stock system printed on equipment?

 

There are many different types of equipment that have stock numbers printed or stenciled on them during the war both factory and service applied.

The M-3 bags do not apply here because they are Ordnance not QM , this can be defined by the Ord part number D90242. The Ordnance Dept. is a separate entity from the Quartermaster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As said at the other post the WWII Thompson clip bags were phased out in 1943 and the GP bag took its place in 1943. I think after WWII the M3 grease gun need a bag also the less used Thompson so they started making them again, they are the same construction as a GP bag as extra webbing was stitched down along the sides but they had the divider cells added on the insides.

As with the WWII GP bag the lower ranking GI's were stuffing them with anything and everything with many different types of ordnances, the problem with this is the primers could be hit & pins pulled out of grenades by just falling on the bag or dropping it and I think the Army knew this so that's why it didn't make a come back after WWII

 

Craig

Just because you see no Thompson bags dated after 1943 they were phased out?

When contracts are awarded quantities are established by calculating a projected rate of consumption meaning not only what they require at that time but will also be needed 6 months to a year after the contract was made to assure ample amounts in stock. We see this with many WWII items having skips in years because there are significant amounts available in that calendar year after evaluated by the ASC. Due to the fact that we see no bags dated after 1943 we can deduce that acceptable amounts remained in the supply system so no further contracts were awarded for manufacture. The Thompson bag remained in the supply system for the duration of the war.

The General Purpose bag is just that ..general purpose. It was designed for larger items like the 30 cal. ammo can, 6-8 rifle grenades, demolition etc. So yes GI's used them for anything and everything that's what they are made for...the rest of your statement is just nonsense,sorry.

GP bags were also manufactured with Korean War era dates

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Craig, you should also be aware that the MRT dates on webbing is when they were treated with the mildew-resisitance treatment, not when they were made, hence why you've got a 1951 "dated" tan webbing sling.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The stock numbers here on your cover is first time a numbering stocking system is being set up and used to help the Army quarter master supply system to correctly identiy it's proper type field gear when being ordered or issued, remember the t handle shovel was still being used. This marking stocking system is same type being used on those M3 bags and if they were being made at the end of the war them why aren't they dated 1945?

 

Attached below is a cut from the 1943 Quartermaster catalog illustrating the use of Stock Numbers.

post-3887-0-47412900-1383829986.jpg

 

 

 

These stock numbers were in full use through all of WW2 as far as I know. Looking in the pocket of a pre-war Parsons jacket, as posted by ShrapnelDude, you'll find that pesky stock number.

 

post-1424-0-19061200-1382931479.jpg

 

Ordnance DRAWING NUMBERS are a totally different subject and are marked differently than QM items. The magazine bag for the M3 sub machine gun is an Ordnance item as clearly identified by its D series drawing number and presence in Ordnance TM's and SNL's.

 

Apples to Oranges.

 

Here is a link to the October 8, 1945 document from Rock Island Armory explaining the history of their "Letter Prefix" Ordnance Drawing Numbers and transition to the "Leading Number" system.

 

 

 

Here is a link to the 1943 Ordnance SNL-A58 which covers the Gun, Submachine, Caliber 45, M3, it is illustrative of Ordnance Drawing Numbers / Part Listings. Unfortunately, the bag in question is not listed in any of the Wartime ORD SNL's that specifically address the M3. They do show up in the 1944 Sherman Tank TM as I previously addressed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right. The grenade pouch is an item of personal load-bearing equipment, and therefor a QM item. The bags being discussed in this thread were part of the on-board equipment of a vehicle (such as a Sherman tank), not individual equipment like a cartridge belt or pack would be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These stock numbers were in full use through all of WW2 as far as I know. Looking in the pocket of a pre-war Parsons jacket, as posted by ShrapnelDude, you'll find that pesky stock number.

Greaser , I'm pretty sure Craig was meaning a stock number system applied onto the actual equipment and not the overall use of.....but he will have to clarify.

 

The stock number system in question is universal for both military and commercial industries under a federal specification system in which all industry had to comply with as a standard manufacturing guideline kind of like basic minimum building codes, FDA etc. This system was in use as early as 1930.

The first number is a Federal Standard Stock Class for example on stock number 55-D-526 as listed for Drawers is titled Textile-Clothing, Knitted Goods.

The second notion is the first letter in the nomenclature in this case Drawers and the last sequence of numbers is a sequential serial number denoting that there are 525 previous items listed under a stock class 55-D.

Off topic but this one is heating up!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...