Chief Petty Officer Combination Cover Anchor Collectors

[Kaigun Shosa]

Here are my cap badges. All pin back and all different makes and variants.

 

Here are the backs:

 

[topdcnut]

Had these a while, wanted the one with the rope, now I see the one on the right with the odd construction.

[firefighter]

 

Not the best picture but this is the earlier USMM CPO hat device.Center has shield surrounded by 13 stars.Looks better in person.

[Tim B]

Had these a while, wanted the one with the rope, now I see the one on the right with the odd construction.DSCN6065.JPG

 

Not sure what you mean by "odd construction" here? Can you elaborate some?

 

Tim

[Tim B]

 

On 11/14/2015 at 4:26 AM, firefighter said:

 

Not the best picture but this is the earlier USMM CPO hat device.Center has shield surrounded by 13 stars.Looks better in person.

Nice! I too am looking for one of the 1st patterns. Envious but happy to see someone else here acquire one of these, congrats!

 

You can find some other examples here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/221696-usms-chief-petty-officer-hat-badge/

 

Tim

[firefighter]

 

Nice! I too am looking for one of the 1st patterns. Envious but happy to see someone else here acquire one of these, congrats!

 

You can find some other examples here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/221696-usms-chief-petty-officer-hat-badge/

 

Tim

 

Thank you Tim. It took me a bit to figure out what it was.

[holdaas]

Current photo of my collection. I'm using a ring display case to keep them organized, it's a tight fit but works pretty well.

[stucky151]

 

 

Thank you Tim. It took me a bit to figure out what it was.[/

 

Heres one on ebay right now

http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/151883377004

 

EX. RARE pre WW2 USMS Merchant Marine CPO Chief Petty Officer hat cap badge pin

[Tim B]

I haven’t been posting much lately and as some of you already know, I have had some past issues with people using my photos posted here for personal gain without my permission. It’s an issue that may be resolved, as far as any future use, as the parties are aware of my involvement getting it stopped. I also see more and more Ebay sellers using the information from various threads here to identify, sometimes incorrectly, their sale items and felt it was better to have accurate information posted so they would either get it correct or at least potential buyers could read it for themselves. Anyway, I want to continue to contribute here for the benefit of the collectors that enjoy the hobby for what it is.

 

Back on Page 5 of this thread, I had asked about the differences and possible timelines between those anchors with the slanted N or those that were more horizontally arced in a semi-circle (post 107). Some speculated that the difference was probably manufacturer related. Though I do see more examples with the arc lettering being marked by Gemsco, N.U.S. (Naval Uniform Supply) or left unmarked, it’s not to say some didn’t produce both patterns. I know Gemsco produced a slanted N pattern in garrison cap size.

 

 

Does anyone have a different manufacturer with the horizontal arc lettering (semi-circle)?

 

Since then, looking through various uniform regulations, commercial references, sales charts, and period photos I have come to believe the horizontal arc examples actually date from 1943 onward. Every reference that Ive viewed thus far shows the slanted N version prior to and through early 1943 and after 1943, the arc versions. So, IMO, I think the existing slanted N pattern carried over from previous eras through WW2 and into the post-war period, while the semi-circled arc versions got their start sometime in 1943 and continued through to the post-war period as well.

 

Ill put up a few reference photos to show but there are more like examples, just the resolution is such to make it useless to show here.

 

 

Does anyone have something contrary?

 

 

From 1942:

 

From the "Naval Officer's Uniform Plan" dated January 1943. Note the cap shows the slanted N, while the stand alone anchor shows the arc version.

 

From the "Armed Forces Insignia" booklet dated February 1943:

 

And another booklet "Navy Insignia" dated 1944.

 

Though most 47 pattern anchors (with screw post attachment) appear to be of the horizontal arc variety, there were examples contrary to this as shown by two different Hilborn Hamburger examples below.

 

Though I read nothing specifically calling out the lettering being of the arc style in the 47 uniform regulations, I do believe the desire for the lettering to be more symmetrical in appearance led to the arc style coming out in specifications and eventually to the horizontal line lettering we see by 1951.

 

Note the first example is actually marked HH/Imperial; again another case in point that Imperial marked items were not indicative of a specific timeframe but IMO, product related, specifically not their "sterling" version.

 

Here's the more commonly seen HH version anchor, this one also marked "Viking", which again is a product line, not joint manufacturer.

[Tim B]

The other question I asked concerned that oddball example we see with the rope/line and of the WW2 pattern anchor. I showed a comparison back around posts 193-195 and wanted to add some more to that discussion.

 

After looking at various examples, Im sure this particular pattern is attributed to one specific maker, that for some reason decided to use and stay with the line type fouling starting in the 1930s and carrying over to '50s era. I have yet to positively identify the manufacturer, but as you can see, the details remain the same throughout the following examples.

 

I've shown these before but here they are again for ease of discussion. The first is of the 1943 pattern with pin attachment. Note the silver round periods between letters, the "line" type fouling, and on the reverse, the flat surface of the fouling. This is consistent throughout all of these I show below. Also, there is a hollow back version of this '43 anchor.

[Tim B]

Here's the '47 pattern screw back

[Tim B]

Now, for a couple of interesting discoveries. Here's one of the 1930's pattern anchor that uses that twisted wire/cable. Note the same details called out above.

[Tim B]

And lastly, a '51 pattern anchor that has the horizontal lettering. If anyone has ever tried to bend one of these, they know its not easy to bend as the metal is fairly robust and I see no signs of that happening here. Keep in mind that "if" the letter "N" was thought to be bent, the '47 version was of horizontally "arc" style lettering and the letter "U" does not appear bent at all.

 

So, we now know this pattern of rope/line was used both prior and after WW2. As the details are consistent here throughout and not shared by another manufacturer, I think its clear to see this is one specific maker.

 

I don't have a reverse shot on this one.

[hirsca]

I just discovered this thread. I had posted a picture of this hat badge earlier seeking info if this was British made. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks, Al

[dpcsdan]

Great post, great info.

[topdcnut]

I need to speak with someone on this thread who is currently Active or Reserve Navy who is familiar with the latest revision of NAVEDTRA 38202

[hirsca]

I just discovered this thread. I had posted a picture of this hat badge earlier seeking info if this was British made. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks, Al

 

Post 239

 

BTT Anyone?

 

Thanks, Al

[Tim B]

Al,

IMO, the pattern of anchor with the separately applied fouled chain was used early on by several manufacturers. Perhaps this was the initial design when WW2 started and many used it prior to making their own particular designs? Was it something one manufacturer produced and then marketed it to others...unknown to me.

 

I would tend to agree, based on the hardware shown, it is probably an item produced or assembled by J.R. Gaunt of London, England. If you compare the mounting hardware with the examples of different insignia in the J.R. Gaunt section on "hallmarks", I think you'll agree.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23952-jr-gaunt/

I would also suggest looking into the Australian manufacturer's Wallace Bishop, of Brisbane, Australia and K.G. Luke as they used similar hardware. Any source details you can share?

 

Hope that helps some.

Tim

[hirsca]

Al,

 

IMO, the pattern of anchor with the separately applied fouled chain was used early on by several manufacturers. Perhaps this was the initial design when WW2 started and many used it prior to making their own particular designs? Was it something one manufacturer produced and then marketed it to others...unknown to me.

 

I would tend to agree, based on the hardware shown, it is probably an item produced or assembled by J.R. Gaunt of London, England. If you compare the mounting hardware with the examples of different insignia in the J.R. Gaunt section on "hallmarks", I think you'll agree.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23952-jr-gaunt/

 

I would also suggest looking into the Australian manufacturer's Wallace Bishop, of Brisbane, Australia and K.G. Luke as they used similar hardware. Any source details you can share?

 

Hope that helps some.

Tim

 

Many thanks Tim, I appreciate the research info and suggestions, this helps a lot.

 

As for any sourcing info, the hat badge was acquired at an estate sale along with several USAAF insignia. No provenance as to why all of them were at the sale.

 

I will search the Australian manufacturers.

 

Again, thank you for the reply.

 

Al

[Tim B]

Anytime Al

[Dan360]

Here is the latest photo of my collection. ..

[Tim B]

Here's a question for anybody to answer; Has anyone read anything official that discusses the wear of subdued (bronze) CPO devices prior to WW2?

 

I've found references in the WW2 and post-WW2 regulations, but nothing prior to 1940. We know they existed but what were the regs on wearing them?

 

Interestingly, the plates in the 1913/17 Naval Uniform Regs show a chief in dress whites with a darkened device but I read no specifics.

 

Here's a close up and you can see the device is subdued compared to other photo plates in the same regs.

[Tim B]

In the 1917 dated revision of the 1913 regulations, where it combines the Navy and Marine Corps, it only discusses that naval personnel will wear marine style uniforms with appropriate naval insignia.

 

[Tim B]

In the Forward portion of the 1947 regulations and I think I've seen it in one of the earlier WW2 ('43/'44) regs, I read this:

 

[Tim B]

I saved a copy of this post card supposedly showing a chief during action at Vera Cruz. It appears that he is wearing a subdues anchor on the cap.