Chief Petty Officer Combination Cover Anchor Collectors

[holdaas]

Here's the one I'm missing, it's an 80's era Senior Chief anchor. It seems like it'd be a common item but I've only ever seen this one for sale, and I missed it. The 60's era star is lower and the current star is higher.

[dpcsdan]

All three marked V-21-N on the reverse.

I thought I had two sets, but can only locate this one.

-dan

 

[holdaas]

The middle one is the one I don't have, might seem a bit ridiculous to hunt for something with such a minute difference but I have found all 3 collar device variations.

[KurtA]

Here's the one I'm missing, it's an 80's era Senior Chief anchor. It seems like it'd be a common item but I've only ever seen this one for sale, and I missed it. The 60's era star is lower and the current star is higher.

 

 

I never knew this. Being a "variation freak", I will have to start paying attention when I see SCPO hat badges for sale at shows and flea markets. I assume this also applies for Master Chiefs?

[Grant S.]

Good, informative discussion. We only have one CPO device at the museum. It has the "son in the service" device on it as well. Curious that this is the only insignia throughout the services that adopted this modification (afaik). Also, the anchor with 3 stars is the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy insignia, isn't it?

[holdaas]

The Master Chief anchor has stayed the same since inception, not sure why the Senior Chief was the only anchor with changes? The 3 stared anchor is the MCPON anchor.

[dpcsdan]

The Master Chief anchor has stayed the same since inception, not sure why the Senior Chief was the only anchor with changes? The 3 stared anchor is the MCPON anchor.

According to the quarterdeck.org page it was strictly a manufacturer's variation. The "higher" mounting has always been available from both the East and West coast NEX systems since the 1960 implementation date. The different mounting points on the anchor shank have appeared on both coasts.

http://www.quarterdeck.org/uniforms/CPO_HatDevices/HatDevices.htm

[Dan360]

@ NavyRabbit, I won my hat button the end of april this year on Ebay, just a hair over 300 bucks. It was my wedding day and if i didn't up my bid before i got to the church, i would've lost out. Technically, my wife could'nt blame me for spending too much, we weren't married yet!!

[Dan360]

I have one of the elusive middle-height star, Senior Chief anchors for the garrison cap. Still haven't found one for the combo cover...

[holdaas]

I'm putting the collection away for a few month, figured I'd post a picture before I do.

[PaulR]

Are there any Senior Chief Anchors where the star rests on top of the ring? They started making ours this way recently so that the star was more easily seen.

[Tim B]

Paul,

 

I never noticed the Navy SCPO star moving that high, but will have to check next time I visit the NEX uniform shop to see what they are selling these days.

 

I remember when selecting my E-8 sets, to avoid the stars which sat lower on the anchor, as the stars are not as visible from a distance. Nothing worse than calling a Senior Chief "Chief" and having that discussion; been there, done that! Some guys didn't really care, some just enjoyed chewing on those that lacked ATD, but many resented it. Considering the time it takes to go from the top 10% to the 3%, I guess I can't blame them.

 

I never really got into collecting these CPO devices and had to look through what I had left. Most of my E-7 are gone, passed down to new Chiefs over the years. I have most of my E-8 and all of my E-9 pins, nothing special, mostly Vanguard, one H-H and I think one Meyer?

 

 

Here's a question for you guys: What is the timeline, if any, between these WW2/post-WW2 devices shown below?

 

I see versions that are somewhat straight with the slanted "N" and those that have all the letters in an arc. I initially thought the arc superceded the slanting "N" but as you can see in the PIC, there are three different arc examples. The one on the far left has a rope/coil, center left uses a chain (which I think happened circa 1942) and the example on the far right has a chain but is a post-1951 example with the center screwpost.

 

The slanted "N" and the two examples left of it are all pinback.

 

Was this just a manufacturer's choice in design or is there a separation in time of production and regulations?

 

Thank you.

 

Tim

[dpcsdan]

Paul,

 

I never noticed the Navy SCPO star moving that high, but will have to check next time I visit the NEX uniform shop to see what they are selling these days.

 

I remember when selecting my E-8 sets, to avoid the stars which sat lower on the anchor, as the stars are not as visible from a distance. Nothing worse than calling a Senior Chief "Chief" and having that discussion; been there, done that! Some guys didn't really care, some just enjoyed chewing on those that lacked ATD, but many resented it. Considering the time it takes to go from the top 10% to the 3%, I guess I can't blame them.

 

I never really got into collecting these CPO devices and had to look through what I had left. Most of my E-7 are gone, passed down to new Chiefs over the years. I have most of my E-8 and all of my E-9 pins, nothing special, mostly Vanguard, one H-H and I think one Meyer?

 

 

Here's a question for you guys: What is the timeline, if any, between these WW2/post-WW2 devices shown below?

 

I see versions that are somewhat straight with the slanted "N" and those that have all the letters in an arc. I initially thought the arc superceded the slanting "N" but as you can see in the PIC, there are three different arc examples. The one on the far left has a rope/coil, center left uses a chain (which I think happened circa 1942) and the example on the far right has a chain but is a post-1951 example with the center screwpost.

 

The slanted "N" and the two examples left of it are all pinback.

 

Was this just a manufacturer's choice in design or is there a separation in time of production and regulations?

 

Thank you.

 

Tim

Here's a link to CPO hat device evolution:

http://www.quarterdeck.org/uniforms/CPO_HatDevices/HatDevices.htm

 

[Tim B]

Yes, I've seen that link already and read that information before but, it really doesn't fully answer the question, nor does it explain why we continue to see examples with the slanted "N", sometimes with open style catch and those in a semi-circle with the post-'51 setup and still using wire cable even though the regs called for anchor "chain". Unless I'm missing something..?

[holdaas]

I use the same website as Dan, I've contacted them a few times for help. I would lean toward a manufacturers variation, the regulations were less stringent back then.

 

The same website has numerous copies of different uniform regulations from throughout the years.

 

http://www.quarterdeck.org/uniforms/uniforms.htm

[Tim B]

Hi,

 

Thanks, I was starting to believe that as well. I understand where some manufacturers may be faster or slower changing dies and tooling to meet new regulation requirements, plus the desire to continue to issue present stock, so some overlap is expected.

 

In your opinion, as I see you have studied these more than I, do you think the semi-circle design came out after the versions that are more horizontal with the slanted "N", or were they short-lived sometime during and after WW2? I tend to see more slanted variety on the market from various manufacturers and the hardware and hallmarks appear to be early WW2.

 

Thanks for helping me out with my questions.

 

Tim

[Tim B]

While I'm asking questions, I have one fairly early Navy CPO anchor. Is there a way to more accurately distinguish those between 1900 - 1940? So many variations and positions of the lettering. I'm guessing 20's - 30's on this one?

 

Tim

[holdaas]

Tim,

This is only my opinion, ultimately I think they were both manufactured during the same period...everything below is essentiallly a cut/paste from the page Dan referenced. I don't know if it was a manufacturer, location of manufacture within the same company, or a mix.

 

1944 - Garrison cap device was introduced, most of those that I see are horizontal with the slanted "N".

1947 - Uniform regulations described the specified the U.S.N. to be in a semi circle.

1951 - Uniform regulations the U.S.N. shall be superimposed horizontally on the shank of the anchor.

1954 -

Notes from 1954 Uniform Board

Extracts from the “AGENDA of Permanent Naval Uniform Board Meeting No. 25”
held Tuesday 26 January 1954 in Room 2401 Annex.

2. Chief Petty Officer Cap Device

Recommendation: That Uniform Regulations be modified to permit utilization of present stocks of CPO cap devices with the “USN” in a horizontal arc, in addition to the presently prescribed device with the “USN” in a horizontal straight line.

Brief: Recommended by BuSandA (enclosure C). When the 1951 Uniform Regulations were published, the previous specification that the “USN” should be in “a horizontal arc” was changed to “a horizontal straight line.” Approval of this recommendation would permit utilization of present stocks of CPO cap devices and a resulting economy and avoidance of waste. Future procurement, upon depletion of present stocks, would be of the presently prescribed device.

Ben

[Tim B]

Ben,

 

Thanks, I know it's probably the most we got, information wise, until we actually find a copy of the Uniform Regulations out there that has decent illustrations.

 

When I picked up my first WW2 example (slanted "N"), I could see where the design could continue the concept of slanting the anchor on the cap, so I figured that might have been a carry over from the WW1 style. Time will tell.

 

Here's a rather common Hilborn-Hamburger version. I think it might be early to mid WW2 with that 4-nub style roller but prior to 1947 by the looks of the information you show.

 

Carries dual hallmarks:

 

.

[Tim B]

Here's a couple for Paul.

 

As the Coast Guard CPO rating was first established in May of 1920, this example may date from the 20's to 30's. It matches the design shown in the 1930 CG Uniform Regulations, though technically I think this anchor pattern (with the fouled cable) carried out to 1942 when they changed the design to a fouled chain.

 

I need to find a good reference that shows the variety of Meyer hallmarks used and maybe then can isolate the date down further.

[Tim B]

Here's a WW2 version, post 1942 (or whenever the change actually happened) showing the "chain". Marked Meyer Metal with the raised Meyer shield. I think the Meyer Metal hallmark dates it as WW2 vintage.

 

Hallmarks:

[holdaas]

Tim,

Again, this is my opinion based on both what I see in my collection and have read.

 

In my collection,

 

- The older anchors are a bit smaller in size...the two left anchors are older.

- The older anchors cord ends on the right side of the "N' as seen in the two left anchors...possibly due to the smaller size.

- The bottom shank on the bottom anchor is made of rounded metal, may have been modified from the sew on shanks.

- The sweep of the USN seems more dramatic in the older anchors.

- The hinge on the older anchors almost looks home made, the bottom picture is a good example.

 

Ben

[Tim B]

Ben,

 

Interesting, I never looked where the wire cable actually ended on the "N". You don't see many of these, you have some very nice examples!

 

Thank you,

Tim

[Terry K.]

Here is one I just got today.

He had this one and a Meyer made collar size. I never bought the collar one as he had $20 on it.

 

I take it this is pre-war?

 

with flash

[Terry K.]

After research this is a WW1 pin back made by A.E. Co.