Jim Baker Posted October 27, 2012 Share #1 Posted October 27, 2012 Since I collect WWII era armor and TD, I tend to be leery of these 194th patches as it seems most are 50's era or made for collectors. But this one caught my eye based on a few construction characteristics I'd like to get opinions on. It passes the usual UV and burn tests. There is no bunching up of the patch and the numbers appear to have been added at the time the patch was made. The reverse threads are the same color throughout and the patch seems to have aged evenly. So, I'm thinking I found a WWII era patch. What are your thoughts? Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vzemke Posted October 28, 2012 Share #2 Posted October 28, 2012 Jim, Given the history of this unit and the looks of this patch, it is no doubt real. But not WWII era. Likely from the 194th's National Guard days in the 1950's. I believe they were part of the 47th Infantry Division during that time, likely this would have been worn above the left front pocket with a 47th Division "viking" patch on the left shoulder. Vance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyCanteen Posted October 28, 2012 Share #3 Posted October 28, 2012 Hmmmmm -- I know many, if not all of the 194th were captured in the PI early in WW2 -- one company was from Port Clinton, OH, near where I live. This was an Ohio Nat'l Guard unit. Certainly they went overseas late in '41, so I would ask: "Were such numbered armored triangles authorized or worn that early." I do not know the answer and would be curious to know myself. I do not recall ever having seen one before. G That's what I was thinking, the unit was mostly captured and I don't know if they would have these numbered battalion patches in 1941. However, Stanton's OOB does note that Co's A,B & C were from Minnesota, Missouri and California NG Tank Co's and that Co. B did not accompany the 194th to the PI but were later formed into the 602nd co. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyCanteen Posted October 28, 2012 Share #4 Posted October 28, 2012 Gil, not sure what happened to your post, I was going to say that the 192nd had a company from an Ohio NG unit; probably the one you are thinking of. RC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Andrews Posted October 28, 2012 Share #5 Posted October 28, 2012 The NG Tank units that existed, as separate COMPANIES, in 1940 were, when Federalized, combined into BATTALIONs. The Bn HQs were "formed new", hence did not belong to any specific state. The 191st Bn had Co A (ex-27th Tk Co, NY); Co B (ex-26th Tk Co, Mass); and Co C (ex-29th Tk Co, VA); and Co D (ex-43rd Tk Co, CT). It was NOT perpetuated as a Bn after WWII. The 192nd and 194th went to the Philippines and were destroyed/captured/surrendered there. After the war, an entire Tk Bn numbered the 192nd was allocated to Kentucky. The 192nd of 1940 was comprised of Co A (32nd Wisc); Co B (33rd IL); Co C (37th OH); Co D (38th KY). The 194th of 1940 had Co A (34th MN); Co B (35th MO); Co C (40th CA); apparently no Co D was formed. And Co B was separated, redes 602nd Tk Co and sent to Alaska, subordinated to the MO NG 138th Inf Regt (and equipped with Marmon-Herrington tanks originally ordered by the Dutch East Indies). As with the 192nd and KY, the 194th number was allocated to Minnesota after the war and activated there 9 Apr 47, assigned to the 47th ID in 1949. I would guess that the SSI shown comes from the post-war period, especially the 1947-1949 timeframe when the Bn was NOT an organic element of the 47th and would have worn it on their sleeves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vostoktrading Posted October 28, 2012 Share #6 Posted October 28, 2012 Jim, I don't know anything about that patch but I thought you'd like these pictures from the Philippines. I think these are just days before Japan started the war. Caption reads December 1941. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vostoktrading Posted October 28, 2012 Share #7 Posted October 28, 2012 A few more: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vostoktrading Posted October 28, 2012 Share #8 Posted October 28, 2012 And a few more: Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyCanteen Posted October 28, 2012 Share #9 Posted October 28, 2012 I may be wrong, but I think the photos were taken stateside. I think they did some kind of maneuvers in mid '41 and brought in some Philippine Scouts too. RC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chcole1 Posted October 28, 2012 Share #10 Posted October 28, 2012 Makes you wonder if any of these guys made it home. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vostoktrading Posted October 28, 2012 Share #11 Posted October 28, 2012 I may be wrong, but I think the photos were taken stateside. I think they did some kind of maneuvers in mid '41 and brought in some Philippine Scouts too. RC No RC, these are all from the Philippines. These are from Time-Life collection and taken by one photographer that spent some time on Luzon in December 1941. I cant remember his name off hand. Here's a picture of Douglas MacArthur decorating a soldier from the same series. There are some great pictures in this series! Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baker Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share #12 Posted October 28, 2012 Love the photos, thanks!! On the patch, I'm familiar with the unit history. My thinking is the patch is immediate post war as nearly all numbered patches were. This is due to the construction of the patch, and I forgot to mention earlier I like the narrow lightning bolt. I also would wonder if survivors returning after the war that remained in the service or just wanted one for their uniforms would have had these available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyCanteen Posted October 28, 2012 Share #13 Posted October 28, 2012 No RC, these are all from the Philippines. These are from Time-Life collection and taken by one photographer that spent some time on Luzon in December 1941. I cant remember his name off hand. Here's a picture of Douglas MacArthur decorating a soldier from the same series. There are some great pictures in this series! Jon Ok, I know the photographer you're talking about. (I should have recognized the trees). I'm thinking of a similar series done earlier, during some training in Kentucky I think. Nice photos, RC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baker Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share #14 Posted October 28, 2012 BTW, that young man sitting in the turret of "Aurora" is Lt. Lloyd Magill, and the photo was taken near Manila in 1941. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vostoktrading Posted October 28, 2012 Share #15 Posted October 28, 2012 BTW, that young man sitting in the turret of "Aurora" is Lt. Lloyd Magill, and the photo was taken near Manila in 1941. I'm almost afraid to ask... Do you know what happened to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baker Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share #16 Posted October 28, 2012 I'm almost afraid to ask... Do you know what happened to him? KIA - January 24, 1945 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper704 Posted October 28, 2012 Share #17 Posted October 28, 2012 These three-digit-numbered patches remain a very difficult field to collect as most seem to be of the early post war period. As far as I know only a few tank battalions had these patches in WWII, not to mention those with numbers added by the men themselves (similar to TD patches). This topic is very interesting, especially for the photos of the 194th. Somehow it would make sense that the unit had these matches made since they were not organic to a unit around 1948. And maybe to reflect their heritage in the process(?). Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baker Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share #18 Posted October 28, 2012 Hi Erwin, Holding this patch in hand, I'm still of the opinion it is immediate post war (as most TB numbered patches are), and not from the 50's. If guys were coming home from the camps, or had hid out as guerrillas, they could have worn this as a combat patch. And rightfully so since they were the first to fight so to speak. Anyway, it's nicely made and is going in the case. Now I need to find a 193rd TB I like as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyCanteen Posted October 28, 2012 Share #19 Posted October 28, 2012 If guys were coming home from the camps, or had hid out as guerrillas, they could have worn this as a combat patch. And rightfully so since they were the first to fight so to speak. Perhaps, it could have been. But I would have expected them to have worn the Philippine Department too, I guess in some cases it's plausible. It's a neat patch anyway. RC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanker1 Posted October 28, 2012 Share #20 Posted October 28, 2012 Nice pics and history of the 194th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankpatches Posted October 28, 2012 Share #21 Posted October 28, 2012 J Andrews nailed it !! The patch is post WW2 also note the khaki medium sticking out around the edge of the patch, which is one of the telltale signs of post war manufacture Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPage Posted October 29, 2012 Share #22 Posted October 29, 2012 J Andrews nailed it !! The patch is post WW2 also note the khaki medium sticking out around the edge of the patch, which is one of the telltale signs of post war manufacture Al How soon after the war do you think that that khaki edge started appearing on patches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper704 Posted October 30, 2012 Share #23 Posted October 30, 2012 I was wondering about that too. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimO Posted December 7, 2012 Share #24 Posted December 7, 2012 I just joined, but I actually know men who served in the 192nd Tank Battalion. The Provisional Tank Group was made up of the 192nd & 194th Tank Battalions. In the case of the 192nd, their triangle did not have a number. This, I believe, was also true of the 194th. They were considered "independent tank battalions." You might want to visit: http://www.proviso.k12.il.us/bataan%20web/index.htm The tanks of both battalions were also completely devoid of miltiary markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baker Posted December 7, 2012 Author Share #25 Posted December 7, 2012 I've seen this site. Very interesting, and thanks for posting it. AND, welcome to the forum!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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