What do you think of this Ike? 39th reg 9th division with DUI, CIB, and Bronze star

[Dr_rambow]

Just had a friend bring this in for me to look at when I was at his shop today. I'm interested in it, but he would like to find out more before we work out a price. I'm fine with that, it give me a chance to learn a well. WW2 uniforms aren't my strong point, so there are a few things I am unsure about. Is the odd little device over the 9th division patch official? I know it has to do with the slogan, but I'm not familiar with them. Also, do the DUIs look period to the jacket?

 

First, does it all look like it belongs on the jacket? The patches all look original applied, but the insignia always has me concerned. For example, is it unusual for these to show up with the ruptured duck but no victory medal?

 

Any thoughts on a fair market value would be appreciated. If I end up with it this will be a keeper, I like it. Also, any chance anyone can make out the name of this gent?

 

 

The CIB is marked sterling with sterling clutch back devices. Ribbon bars are all clutch-back, but some appear to have been replaced with bent sheet metal pieces rather than the brass ones.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks!

[Johan Willaert]

The two US collar discs are uncommon, but not unseen...

 

I don't really see anything wrong with this IKE.... I like the AAAO clasp...

[oldfireguy]

The bar above the patch is the slogan of the 39th Inf.; Anything, Anytime, Anywhere bar nothing.

 

The DUI's are correct for the unit but I can't speak for the wear on the uniform during WW2. Are the clutch back or pin back?

 

I have several 9th ID jackets in my collection and they are all different.

[Brian Keith]

I think the "AAA-0" is an unusual treasure! It would be nice to get an ID on the uniform. Seemingly incomplete ribbon bars (no WW II Victory) is common. Non-matching clutch backs is common also. I have two WW II coats, purchased directly from the vets with out collar brass on them. They said supply ran out of collar brass when the coats were issued to the vets coming home from the war.

Very Nice Ike!

MSG BKW

[rmoore456]

The things that I see are not necessarily deal killers.

The Pres. Citation on the pocket flap tends to make me think it was added.

I have not seen the AAA-0 pin worn in this fashion, usually on the OS hat.

More than one award of the Good Conduct on a WWII uniform.

American Defense ribbon but no service stripes.

The bent sheet metal clutches are probably correct as the ribbons appear to be Wolf-Brown.

My gut says the ribbons and CIB have been added. I wouldn'y pay more than the sum of the parts. Just my 2 cents.

 

Ray

[Dr_rambow]

Thanks guys!

 

The DUIs are pin back.

 

So I'm guessing this is a put together piece made by a well educated individual? I had a feeling the some stuff was added, but it seems believable.

 

I'll have to look up prices for the parts since I really don't know.

[seanmc1114]

The things that I see are not necessarily deal killers.

The Pres. Citation on the pocket flap tends to make me think it was added.

I have not seen the AAA-0 pin worn in this fashion, usually on the OS hat.

More than one award of the Good Conduct on a WWII uniform.

American Defense ribbon but no service stripes.

The bent sheet metal clutches are probably correct as the ribbons appear to be Wolf-Brown.

My gut says the ribbons and CIB have been added. I wouldn'y pay more than the sum of the parts. Just my 2 cents.

 

Ray

You definitely have some points there, but keep this in mind.

 

1. I have seen a number of Ike jackets with DUC ribbons above or below the Ruptured Duck patch. It makes me think these were usually sewn on at the discharge center before pin-on insignia was added. If this was a uniform worn home following discharge, the misplaced DUC ribbon wouldn't be that big a deal.

 

2. I have never been able to confirm exactly when the knot devices were first worn on the Good Conduct ribbon, but I have also seen them on legitimate period uniforms. I believe that the regulations in effect at the end of WWII ould be read to authorize two awards of the GCM for four years of service during the war. Plus the relevant executive order and amendments establishing the medal make reference to appurtenances to the medal.

 

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_8809

 

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9323

 

Neither of these confirms the legitimacy of the uniform, but at the same time, I don't think they make it suspect either.

 

The lack of a WWII Victory Medal ribbon is not that big a deal to me either. It was not authorized until July 1945 and who knows how long it took for the ribbons to become available? Based on this soldier's service, he was probably discharged fairly soon after the Germans surrendered.

 

By the way, can anyone tell if there are four bronze campaign stars on the ETO ribbon or is that one silver and three bronze? If the latter, that and the overseas bars jibe with the 9th Division's WWII service and would indicate this soldier fought all the way through from North Africa to Germany and the end of the war.

[Dr_rambow]

By the way, can anyone tell if there are four bronze campaign stars on the ETO ribbon or is that one silver and three bronze? If the latter, that and the overseas bars jibe with the 9th Division's WWII service and would indicate this soldier fought all the way through from North Africa to Germany and the end of the war.

 

I thought it was bronze when I was looking at it, but then again the arrow head (which is silvered) doesn't look too far off when compared to the first star. It might just be the lighting. I'll have to double check next Saturday when I am down there again.

[carbinephalen]

I like it! I wouldn't mind adding it to the war room.

[Allan H.]

I have NO DOUBTS that this uniform is EXACTLY the way it was worn home and also doubt that a collector has monkeyed with it. I'll start with the AAAO pin- there are a number of tabs that exisit with the same letters. I have been told by VETERANS that the tabs were ignored by the command of the 39th IR but that they were not allowed to be worn by higher echelons of the 9th ID. So, you have a soldier wanting to wear it and a command structure that doesn't want them worn. WHat's the obvious option here? A pinback "tab" that can be removed when it is demanded that the soldier do so. The lack of a service stripe on the Ike is also not unusual. I have posted uniforms in the past that came directly from veterans that are sometimes not only missing the service stripes, but overseas bars as well. I even have a 4 pocket blouse to a 501st PIR veteran with service stripes but no overseas bars even though the soldier jumped in Normandy and Holland.

 

I'm attaching a phot oof my good friend and teacher Sherman Oyler. In the photo, you can see that he is wearing a clasp on his Good Conduct medal and the "fake" and "collector added" Marine shooting badge. In honesty, Sherm had gone through training in the CMTC and earned the badge there. He enlisted before the war started too.

 

Try not to over-think these uniforms guys. We're not collecting Third Reich here!

 

Allan

[Dr_rambow]

 

Very interesting examples Allan.

 

You can never please everyone when you have no real provenance, but I think the problems are not one that can't be overlooked (for reasons you brought up). Funny you should mention TR items. That is one of the primary reasons (right after them being too damn expensive) that I have invested very little time and money into that collecting field.

 

My gut reaction was that it was legit, and more importantly that I like it. That what matters most here right?

 

If I don't have to go into work on Monday/Tuesday (FRANKENSTORM!!!) I might be able drop in to the shop an let my buddy know what you guys think.

[rmoore456]

I have NO DOUBTS that this uniform is EXACTLY the way it was worn home and also doubt that a collector has monkeyed with it. I'll start with the AAAO pin- there are a number of tabs that exisit with the same letters. I have been told by VETERANS that the tabs were ignored by the command of the 39th IR but that they were not allowed to be worn by higher echelons of the 9th ID. So, you have a soldier wanting to wear it and a command structure that doesn't want them worn. WHat's the obvious option here? A pinback "tab" that can be removed when it is demanded that the soldier do so. The lack of a service stripe on the Ike is also not unusual. I have posted uniforms in the past that came directly from veterans that are sometimes not only missing the service stripes, but overseas bars as well. I even have a 4 pocket blouse to a 501st PIR veteran with service stripes but no overseas bars even though the soldier jumped in Normandy and Holland.

 

I'm attaching a phot oof my good friend and teacher Sherman Oyler. In the photo, you can see that he is wearing a clasp on his Good Conduct medal and the "fake" and "collector added" Marine shooting badge. In honesty, Sherm had gone through training in the CMTC and earned the badge there. He enlisted before the war started too.

 

Try not to over-think these uniforms guys. We're not collecting Third Reich here!

 

Allan

 

With prices of US uniforms escalating I believe we need to look at them more closely. All a uniform humper has to do is throw anything on a jacket and because of the wide known practice of GI's not exactly following the regs or leaving things off they get a pass? I think not! At estate auctions I have seen what was once considered a common uniform is selling upwards of $100. One I had gone to had what I considered a $70 uniform with a Pacific Ocean Area patch, 5 ribbons, shirt, tie and two overseas caps. It sold for $185. I asked the buyer why he paid so much. He replied one had sold the week before for $200. What he didn't realize the one the previous week had more desireable patches and more pieces.

Allan that photo you have is great, but let me ask. If you had found just this uniform without knowing the vet or seen the photo would you not suspect the shooting award to have been added? Do you know when this photo was taken?

I also don't think we should be looking for excuses why something is or not on a uniform.

I too have gotten uniforms from the veterans without OS bars, not enough bars, no service stripes, etc. but I can honestly say I have never gotten one with a clasp on the GC ribbon nor a boxed one with a clasp.

 

Ray

[Blitzbuggy12]

You definitely have some points there, but keep this in mind.

 

1. I have seen a number of Ike jackets with DUC ribbons above or below the Ruptured Duck patch. It makes me think these were usually sewn on at the discharge center before pin-on insignia was added. If this was a uniform worn home following discharge, the misplaced DUC ribbon wouldn't be that big a deal.

 

2. I have never been able to confirm exactly when the knot devices were first worn on the Good Conduct ribbon, but I have also seen them on legitimate period uniforms. I believe that the regulations in effect at the end of WWII ould be read to authorize two awards of the GCM for four years of service during the war. Plus the relevant executive order and amendments establishing the medal make reference to appurtenances to the medal.

 

http://en.wikisource...tive_Order_8809

 

http://en.wikisource...tive_Order_9323

 

Neither of these confirms the legitimacy of the uniform, but at the same time, I don't think they make it suspect either.

 

The lack of a WWII Victory Medal ribbon is not that big a deal to me either. It was not authorized until July 1945 and who knows how long it took for the ribbons to become available? Based on this soldier's service, he was probably discharged fairly soon after the Germans surrendered.

 

By the way, can anyone tell if there are four bronze campaign stars on the ETO ribbon or is that one silver and three bronze? If the latter, that and the overseas bars jibe with the 9th Division's WWII service and would indicate this soldier fought all the way through from North Africa to Germany and the end of the war.

 

 

I have to agree with you, The jacket below was my wifes' Grandfathers Ike. Its exactly as he wore it home in October 1945. Has 2 bronze knots and no victory medal. It still amazes me to see how creative some GIs got with insignia/ribbons on thier jackets, honestly if there was anything consistant, it was how inconsistant they can be!

[Allan H.]

With prices of US uniforms escalating I believe we need to look at them more closely. All a uniform humper has to do is throw anything on a jacket and because of the wide known practice of GI's not exactly following the regs or leaving things off they get a pass? I think not! At estate auctions I have seen what was once considered a common uniform is selling upwards of $100. One I had gone to had what I considered a $70 uniform with a Pacific Ocean Area patch, 5 ribbons, shirt, tie and two overseas caps. It sold for $185. I asked the buyer why he paid so much. He replied one had sold the week before for $200. What he didn't realize the one the previous week had more desireable patches and more pieces.

Allan that photo you have is great, but let me ask. If you had found just this uniform without knowing the vet or seen the photo would you not suspect the shooting award to have been added? Do you know when this photo was taken?

I also don't think we should be looking for excuses why something is or not on a uniform.

I too have gotten uniforms from the veterans without OS bars, not enough bars, no service stripes, etc. but I can honestly say I have never gotten one with a clasp on the GC ribbon nor a boxed one with a clasp.

 

Ray

 

Ray,

I am NOT saying "don't worry about US uniforms being faked because they are US uniforms," but rather don't think one is fake because it isn't exactly what you expected to see on it. I am going to start by saying that I have handled literally THOUSANDS of US uniforms over the nearly forty years that I have collected US militaria. I worked at Manion's Auction back in the heyday (mid 1980's) and was a suscriber well before that. My bidder number was a low two digit number- I started REAL early and was the youngest subscriber for many years. It helped that I lived less than an hour from Ron's house and a group of us would drive up and go through his entire auction the night before the auction closed. I'm saying this because I have seen loads of uniforms that have come right out of the woodwork and have seen a fair number of uniforms that were either "enhanced" by adding insignia or completely humped up by starting with a blank uniform and souping it up with all of the bells and whistles. back then, it was 8th Airforce uniforms that were most commonly faked. It really wasn't until "Saving Private Ryan" that the masses really started to get excited about airborne and the prices and fakes exploded in that genre.

Your not having ever seen a clasp on a wartime era US Army Good Conduct medal or ribbon doesn't mean all that much to me as I have no basis for knowing just how extensive your collecting background may be. I for one have seen a good number of them over the years. They are almost always worn by someone who received the Good Conduct when it was established or shortly after and then qualified for the clasp near the end or after the war. In order to verify that I know what I am talking about, I am attaching a photo of a separation record for a soldier who was discharged on December 15, 1945. Note in the awards section that he is awarded the "Good Conduct Medal with Clasp." See? It DOES exist!

Now, if I didn't have photo evidence of the early pattern shooting badge, would I believe it? If the rest of the uniform looked the way it does in the photo, yes, I would. If the badge was a VN era USMC badge, then the answer would be no. Notice that the SSI is an English made eagle and that everything else looks kosher. BTW- the photo was taken right after the veteran returned home from the ETO at Christmas 1945.

I still encourage collectors to buy unattributed uniforms by the "sum of the parts," but you can see that the sums of those parts continue to climb. This keeps the fakers from being motivated by profit. Unfortunately, with the rising values of insignia and patches on their own, lots of these uniforms end up getting cut up and parted out.

 

OK, off the soapbox now.

Allan

[Kadet]

I would buy it, run like a bandit and request the man's record from NARA. I think it is an excellent uniform for all of the positive reasons mentioned. Keep in mind that most guys DIDN'T CARE about their uniforms, especially these Ike combos. They were handed out for the trip home and demobilization. Men were given a hand full of ribbons and patches to apply based on their service, and they stuck them on because the Army said they had to. They were citizen soldiers, most of whom had only been in the Army for two years and just wanted to get back to their lives. I've actually come to consider screwy ribbon combos a sign of originality on these Ike jackets. I've seen film footage of guys in France after the war ended standing in line to get their ribbons. A clerk was sitting at a long table w/ boxes of ribbons in front of him, handing them out after checking the man's documents. This is the origin of those award entitlement documents you see in groupings sometimes.

[Paul70]

I like it. Victory ribbons were not issued until Dec. 45. Most Europe vets with high points got out before issue.

 

Remember to add the service stripe you had to relocate the overseas bars. some vets never added it. I have one uniform where it was added at the bottom and goes almost into the cuff.

[rmoore456]

Ray,

I am NOT saying "don't worry about US uniforms being faked because they are US uniforms," but rather don't think one is fake because it isn't exactly what you expected to see on it. I am going to start by saying that I have handled literally THOUSANDS of US uniforms over the nearly forty years that I have collected US militaria. I worked at Manion's Auction back in the heyday (mid 1980's) and was a suscriber well before that. My bidder number was a low two digit number- I started REAL early and was the youngest subscriber for many years. It helped that I lived less than an hour from Ron's house and a group of us would drive up and go through his entire auction the night before the auction closed. I'm saying this because I have seen loads of uniforms that have come right out of the woodwork and have seen a fair number of uniforms that were either "enhanced" by adding insignia or completely humped up by starting with a blank uniform and souping it up with all of the bells and whistles. back then, it was 8th Airforce uniforms that were most commonly faked. It really wasn't until "Saving Private Ryan" that the masses really started to get excited about airborne and the prices and fakes exploded in that genre.

Your not having ever seen a clasp on a wartime era US Army Good Conduct medal or ribbon doesn't mean all that much to me as I have no basis for knowing just how extensive your collecting background may be. I for one have seen a good number of them over the years. They are almost always worn by someone who received the Good Conduct when it was established or shortly after and then qualified for the clasp near the end or after the war. In order to verify that I know what I am talking about, I am attaching a photo of a separation record for a soldier who was discharged on December 15, 1945. Note in the awards section that he is awarded the "Good Conduct Medal with Clasp." See? It DOES exist!

Now, if I didn't have photo evidence of the early pattern shooting badge, would I believe it? If the rest of the uniform looked the way it does in the photo, yes, I would. If the badge was a VN era USMC badge, then the answer would be no. Notice that the SSI is an English made eagle and that everything else looks kosher. BTW- the photo was taken right after the veteran returned home from the ETO at Christmas 1945.

I still encourage collectors to buy unattributed uniforms by the "sum of the parts," but you can see that the sums of those parts continue to climb. This keeps the fakers from being motivated by profit. Unfortunately, with the rising values of insignia and patches on their own, lots of these uniforms end up getting cut up and parted out.

 

OK, off the soapbox now.

Allan

 

Allan,

Since you brought it up I have been collecting for over 35 years. I did not work for an auction house and "handle thousands of uniforms", but I did hang around a couple of dealers who would give me first choice of uniforms. I have several hundred uniforms in my collection and have seen many more in other collections. I have copies of discharges also and not one uniform or discharge has the GC with clasp on it. Based on what I had seen up until now, I had never seen a clasp on a uniform.

That being said, I did not say the uniform was a total fake. I think it is a legit 9th uniform that has been enhanced.

 

Ray

[Dr_rambow]

You learn something new every day!

[Dr_rambow]

By the way, can anyone tell if there are four bronze campaign stars on the ETO ribbon or is that one silver and three bronze? If the latter, that and the overseas bars jibe with the 9th Division's WWII service and would indicate this soldier fought all the way through from North Africa to Germany and the end of the war.

 

I went back to see it today. I took out my loupe to check the first star and, although much of the finish is gone, it definitely, is one silver and three bronze. That makes me much more comfortable with it.

 

I let him know what I thought and he offered it to me for $100. I would have taken it but my check is late as a result of Sandy. He's going to hold it for me (he actually brought it in from his house to show me) so I'm going to go pick it up one of these days!

 

Thank for all the insights folks!

[Sabrejet]

Personally, I think $100 represents a good deal for that Ike. If it was offered to me for that price I'd take it in a heartbeat! We can drive ourselves to distraction by over-analyzing a uniform's "menu board"! All we can do is apply the knowledge we've acquired over the years, plus a little common sense. In the US you have the added advantage of being to able to acquire uniforms/footlockers directly from a vet's estate. We overseas collectors don't have that "luxury". I've got many US uniforms of all services. How many hands have they passed through before reaching mine? Impossible to tell! I believe it might have been moderator "Dave" (?) who once posted a very detailed thread about what to look for when buying a uniform in order to better tell an "original" from a put-together. I found it very useful and have applied its lessons myself many times since then...it's probably still in the forum's archives somewhere? Ribbons have been mentioned already. I've got a box full of original WW2 ribbon bars which I've accumulated over the years. There are bars with out-of-sequence ribbons...upside down ribbons...incomplete bars etc. So, they might be technically "incorrect" but they are just as they were assembled by the GIs to whom they once belonged...citizen soldiers who just wanted to do their duty and return home asap. So what if an ETO ribbon was erroneously placed ahead of a Purple Heart or Bronze Star?! If you saw such a bar on a uniform does that mean it's a "fake"? As the saying goes..."It ain't necessarily so!" Just my 2%!

[manayunkman]

Over the years I have bought hundreds of uniforms from vets.

 

I have seen every type of mismatched, non regulation, things missing ect ect.

 

Once the war was over I don't think too many guys were interested in getting everything right or due to supply couldn't get it right.

 

What is the history behind your friend getting it ?

 

Nice Ike overall and the motto pin is a big plus for 100.

[Sabrejet]

Manay is absolutely right! I've encountered summer khaki ruptured ducks on OD uniforms....collar discs with one side screw-post, the other clutch-pin...patches being more than the regulation distance from the shoulder seam....ditto o/seas bars from the cuff etc. I recall a collector friend who was reluctant to buy any uniform if the patches were hand-sewn rather than machine-stitched. I explained to him that every GI had a "housewife" kit with needle and threads etc., and that they frequently sewed their own patches on. I even have pics of GIs sitting on their bunks doing just that.! The degree of neatness depended on the dexterity of the GI in question. They weren't all fancy cross-stitchers!! So, we have to consider all of these things when assessing the authenticity of a uniform.

[Patriot12]

Very informative thread.

[Dr_rambow]

Went over and picked it up today. I'm happy with it no matter what anyone says

[manayunkman]

The way it sounds I think everyone will say well done.

 

Was it 100 or less ?

 

Either way great addition to your collection.