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1st Cav subdued, where made?


52m37
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Nice early U.S. made fully embroidered subdued Flat Edge, a rare one in many respects, the Merrowed Edge is the more common and more seen type. thgis type, the Flat Edge fully embroidered subdued types were those that were made sometime in 1968, they were very soon superceaded by the familiar Merrowed Edge ones.

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Hmm,,it may also never had a edge put on it,,then its not rare but unfinished.

 

There are plenty of Flat edge fully subdued U.S. made patches seen for a great deal of units, tabs as well, these I believe are the very first run of this type, the manufactures just making in the same old familar way, except instead of full color the colors are OD and Black. I only say somewhat rare in reguards to the 1st Cav Div, these were worn in Vietnam starting sometime in 1969, but I always spyed Merrowed Edges on them.

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Are we sure this is an OD subdued patch? Despite not having a velcro back, it looks more like a newer ACU patch with the "slate" color background. Sure doesn't look to be green/Olive Drab. Could be the lighting of the photo, though.

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heres a acu patch, these would i'm imagining always have a merrowed edge, i think it's the photo making the front of the patch there off tone, making the border appear greyish, the rear image is much shaper, here we see the border is black.

post-34986-1348954958.jpg

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It actually looks like one of the 1st Cav variants I've acquired along the way in that it is AG-44 shade rather then OD. It's not uncommon to find shoulder patches which typically are largely OD (1st division) or have OD borders produced in AG-44,presumably to match the dress uniform but this is an oddity - if my eyes are seeing it right! Confusion regarding the change by the manufacturer or just using the thread color on hand at the time?

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It actually looks like one of the 1st Cav variants I've acquired along the way in that it is AG-44 shade rather then OD. It's not uncommon to find shoulder patches which typically are largely OD (1st division) or have OD borders produced in AG-44,presumably to match the dress uniform but this is an oddity - if my eyes are seeing it right! Confusion regarding the change by the manufacturer or just using the thread color on hand at the time?

 

Are we talking about U.S. made fully embroidered subdued with AG44 flat edge borders? or the full color ones with AG44 flat edge borders? This would be the first time I am seeing a U.S. made fully embroiderd subdued with a flat edge AG44 border, but it does indeed appear like it, the Black horse head and diagonal bar shows up Black in the photo, but the border does seem to be AG44, as a more confounding thing the reverse photo the border shows itself to be Black. I asked 52m to repost the photos as a couple of us believe for some reason the front patch's true color is distorted, common enough right? but he has not been back online here for few days.

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Are we talking about U.S. made fully embroidered subdued with AG44 flat edge borders? or the full color ones with AG44 flat edge borders? This would be the first time I am seeing a U.S. made fully embroiderd subdued with a flat edge AG44 border, but it does indeed appear like it, the Black horse head and diagonal bar shows up Black in the photo, but the border does seem to be AG44, as a more confounding thing the reverse photo the border shows itself to be Black. I asked 52m to repost the photos as a couple of us believe for some reason the front patch's true color is distorted, common enough right? but he has not been back online here for few days.

 

I was trying to make a reference to the full color sleeve patches made with AG-44, flat edge borders as I'm thinking most people have seen one - or even more extreme - like the 1st Infantry Division I've ocasionally seen - US made, fully embroidered in AG-44 (with red 1) as opposed to the familiar OD it has always been and still is! In this case - from what I can see - this 1st Cav patch is US made - fully embroidered in AG-44 (not just the border but the entire patch) with black horse's head and bend. Kind of take off on the 1st Division design but presumably with the intention of being a subdued patch for field clothing. I have one made to this description and it's always kind of stood out as an oddity for me. I hadn't seen another one until this posting - given it is what I think I see??? Is it a certain manufacturer utilizing the thread at hand or was it a proposed method that never took or possibly just a maker who did it that way because!

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Thank you all for the discussion on this patch. I tried to take additional pics but they all come out the same. As soon as we get some sun up here I will try it using natural light. I did compare it to some ACU patches I have and it is not the same. The color is a very dark black/green and may be the AG shade discussed. The border is the same color as the body of the patch. The border on the back is not black, you may be able to see this in the pic when compared to the bend. The base material is the same shade as the patch and you might be able to see a small portion of the base at the top of the patch.

 

As soon as we get the sun back I will try again.

Stand by...

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I was trying to make a reference to the full color sleeve patches made with AG-44, flat edge borders as I'm thinking most people have seen one - or even more extreme - like the 1st Infantry Division I've ocasionally seen - US made, fully embroidered in AG-44 (with red 1) as opposed to the familiar OD it has always been and still is! In this case - from what I can see - this 1st Cav patch is US made - fully embroidered in AG-44 (not just the border but the entire patch) with black horse's head and bend. Kind of take off on the 1st Division design but presumably with the intention of being a subdued patch for field clothing. I have one made to this description and it's always kind of stood out as an oddity for me. I hadn't seen another one until this posting - given it is what I think I see??? Is it a certain manufacturer utilizing the thread at hand or was it a proposed method that never took or possibly just a maker who did it that way because!

 

Understood, could it be a professional dye job? the white threads on the back are still white, but if they are poly, which started too be used and was common in towards the mid 60s on, would the get dyed too?

 

However if it is all in AG44 and made specifically to be a subdued type, then stop the presses, this might be a rare one, wouldn't you think? perhaps made in what, 1965? a prototype of some kind with the idea of adopting this shade for subdued patches that are to be made like the full color version, as opposed to the ones that started to be made in the U.S. for wear in RVN, IE the machine embroidered on cloth, OG cotton sateen, OD twill?

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We had a little sun today for a short period so I tried to take some additional pics. No additional ones of the back though. I think it is the AG44 and not ACU. Also it has a finished edge/border. If you have ever seen a patch where someone has removed the merrowed edge you will see that there is no finished border on the edge. This patch has a border, that is the same shade of green as the body of the patch, so it is not an 'unfinished' merrowed edge patch.

 

Here is first pic

post-54464-1349304332.jpeg

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No, I do not think so. It is just difficult to get a good rendition of the color.

How about I send it to you for a hands on look see? (You will have to return it when your are done, with no drool marks :-)

If agreeable send me your mailing address via a PM.

Thanks

Hal

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No, I do not think so. It is just difficult to get a good rendition of the color.

How about I send it to you for a hands on look see? (You will have to return it when your are done, with no drool marks :-)

If agreeable send me your mailing address via a PM.

Thanks

Hal

 

Ok, got your PM.

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NobleLoyalGSD

I think I had one of these years ago. I recall it was like a deep teal color. Didn't know anything about it either but was always curious.

~J

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just got this patch that was sent by 52m37 in the mail to examine today, being now able to look at it up close, I can say that it certainly is a unique example, from what I can see it is U.S. made Flat Edge AND ALL Army Green 44, I compaired it next to, and on top of, my AG44 Big Red One patch that's sewn on a second pattern tropical coat I have, and it matches exactly.

 

Is it dyed? I would have to say no, the Dark Green Twill Edge of the Cav patch as well as the Black portions of the patch show no signs of the slightest discoloration of dying, the boobin thread is of couse poly like I thought and thus would not show any dying anyway, but if it was dyed, It shows no characteristics of this, in example, if this was a full color AG44 border Cav patch the Yellow dyed to AG44 would NOT match exactly the originally made AG44 border, there would be shade differances. plus it does not show the characteristics of a dyed patch that has been soaked for longish periods in hot or even boiling water.

 

This patch also was sewn on a uniform at one point, it has sew holes, but it must have been only very briefly on a fatique item as it really is in unused condition, I dont think this was a type that had a merrowed edge that was removed, that thought did cross my mind, this might explain the sew holes, but it has your standard finshed border.

 

My only conclusion is that this was one was perhaps made in the early 68 period, maybe even 66-67 as an experimental type in trying out which shades might be used in making the fully embroidered subdued patches that the Army desired to issue on a large scale in the immidiate future.

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Just got this patch that was sent by 52m37 in the mail to examine today, being now able to look at it up close, I can say that it certainly is a unique example, from what I can see it is U.S. made Flat Edge AND ALL Army Green 44, I compaired it next to, and on top of, my AG44 Big Red One patch that's sewn on a second pattern tropical coat I have, and it matches exactly.

 

Is it dyed? I would have to say no, the Dark Green Twill Edge of the Cav patch as well as the Black portions of the patch show no signs of the slightest discoloration of dying, the boobin thread is of couse poly like I thought and thus would not show any dying anyway, but if it was dyed, It shows no characteristics of this, in example, if this was a full color AG44 border Cav patch the Yellow dyed to AG44 would NOT match exactly the originally made AG44 border, there would be shade differances. plus it does not show the characteristics of a dyed patch that has been soaked for longish periods in hot or even boiling water.

 

This patch also was sewn on a uniform at one point, it has sew holes, but it must have been only very briefly on a fatique item as it really is in unused condition, I dont think this was a type that had a merrowed edge that was removed, that thought did cross my mind, this might explain the sew holes, but it has your standard finshed border.

 

My only conclusion is that this was one was perhaps made in the early 68 period, maybe even 66-67 as an experimental type in trying out which shades might be used in making the fully embroidered subdued patches that the Army desired to issue on a large scale in the immidiate future.

 

 

That is pretty well what i was seeing from the photos. I've got 3 - one pretty well worn and washed - 2 mint and I only recently acquired then so the timings was such that the details were fresh in my mind and I was asking myself some of these same questions!

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