max0073 Posted October 6, 2012 Share #26 Posted October 6, 2012 Hi, please find below pics of my SG helmet Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgawne Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share #27 Posted October 8, 2012 The helmet that should not be. Yup in the corner of page 31 it look pretty clear. I have to go see what format I have that shot in in case I can clean it up some. I'll certainly admit (again) that I was wrong, and that there are things we still don't know for sure- but we can't just let them sit and not follow leads to get to the base. This places it pre-D-Day, so all theories of it being an end of the war thing are out the window. But- digging into my massive pile of WW2 Military Police material, I think I have a hit on that red/white insignia. There’s a caption on a photo that shows it labeling the men as MPs of the 518th Military Police Battalion. Now that’s not all that much to go on, however: the 518th was activated in 1940 at Camp Jay New York, and served in the ETO until its deactivation in 1946. It then was reactivated in 1947 and sent to the Philippines, but there’s the Army for you. It has credit for the five main ETO campaigns: Normandy, Northern France, Rhineland, Ardennes, and Central Europe. But the interesting news is that Company C of the Battalion was awarded a Meritorious Unit Commendation (stream embroidered European Theater) under FIRST Army General Order 48, 26 March 1945. There’s no wartime DI known for the unit, but one came out long after the war which is a typical Institute of Heraldry produced thing with no resemblance to the helmet marking at all. (I actually bought a lot of istuff to one guy in this unit ages ago and there was no DI, but I'll just say there is no DI that I know of). I don’t think there is any real connection between the marking and the 1950 color patch. The patch is a more vertical rectangle; the marking is more of a square. However, there is a link between red and white as an ‘ARMY’ organizational level color as eventually ARMY level MP units were to have white/red bands. What’s curious is that initially, when First Army troops had distinctive branch of service SSIs the MP units used Green and Yellow ones (MP colors being Green and yellow). So maybe someone else can go look up that GO and see if they did anything, or were just ‘good boys during the war’. And if people can look for anything from the 518th perhaps we can find a second source of info to confirm that this is indeed what it is. If someone has time, I would suspect a look at the unit records in DC would turn up something about this. It's oddball enough that there may well be a letter approving it to be done, which might even state the rational for it. I'll look next time I am there, but it may be a long while unless someone wants to give me money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theorywolf Posted October 8, 2012 Share #28 Posted October 8, 2012 Looks great to me! Congrats on a super helmet! Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgawne Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share #29 Posted October 8, 2012 Of course the SG helmet only adds to the mystery as then it doesn't make as much sense that would be a specific MP battalion marking. I'm going to go out on a limb and wonder if the 518th ( if it was that unit) just happened to be the unit assigned to guarding the first army HQ area. I can't recall if I have a list of First Army attachments or not someplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper704 Posted October 8, 2012 Share #30 Posted October 8, 2012 The 518th was located in Chaudfontaine, Belgium in 1945. 1st US Army area. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgawne Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share #31 Posted October 11, 2012 A quick look also shows three MP battalions assinged directly to First Army- 507, 509, and 519th ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryM3 Posted October 11, 2012 Share #32 Posted October 11, 2012 This thread proves the obvious value of this forum, Prior to the evidence brought forth here I would have sworn up and down that the helmet in question could not have possibly been of WWII vintage. A 'well done' to all who provided the evidence solving this mystery. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 12, 2012 Share #33 Posted October 12, 2012 This thread proves the obvious value of this forum, Prior to the evidence brought forth here I would have sworn up and down that the helmet in question could not have possibly been of WWII vintage. A 'well done' to all who provided the evidence solving this mystery. Larry Ditto! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted October 12, 2012 Share #34 Posted October 12, 2012 A quick look also shows three MP battalions assinged directly to First Army- 507, 509, and 519th ! Where did you find this information please? is there a site that lists Army Troops of 1st Army, I have saved one for 5th Army, but could not find one for 1st Army. Never looked for the other WWII Armies however, maybe there out there maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper704 Posted October 12, 2012 Share #35 Posted October 12, 2012 I found the info here; http://militarypoliceflagunits.com/resources/LOCATION+OF+MILITARY+POLICE+BATTALIONS+IN+LATE+1945.pdf Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted October 12, 2012 Share #36 Posted October 12, 2012 I found the info here; http://militarypolic...N LATE 1945.pdf Erwin Good site thanks, saved to favs, I'm wondering though which site if there is one to view that Jgawne found the roster of 1st Army constituent units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodybucket28th Posted November 27, 2012 Share #37 Posted November 27, 2012 This is another pic guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerhouse Posted January 3, 2013 Share #38 Posted January 3, 2013 Hello, An another exemple, look at this film take in Carantan june 1944 : http://www.2gm-norma...500&content=201 Look at the first image and at min 1:27 and 1:37 and you'll see MP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GITom1944 Posted January 3, 2013 Share #39 Posted January 3, 2013 Interesting clip & another useful clue. It looks like it might be a match, and if the dates are right - June 12, 1944 - this might be the earliest photographic documentation of this helmet marking. So, which MP units (companies or battalions) would have been in the Carentan area on June 12th? It is probable the unit would have landed on Utah Beach, though not necessarily on D-Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper704 Posted January 3, 2013 Share #40 Posted January 3, 2013 This underlines the saying "never say never". Maybe the 1950s patch has its origins from this marking, maybe not. It still is very interesting. At least people are/were doing research to support bloodybucket's statement. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpstout Posted January 5, 2013 Share #41 Posted January 5, 2013 This underlines the saying "never say never". Maybe the 1950s patch has its origins from this marking, maybe not. It still is very interesting. At least people are/were doing research to support bloodybucket's statement. Erwin I totally agree! Never say Never! What a great thread and greatly appreciate the "coming together" of pertinent inormation. And to Erwin's earlier question why this information hasn't surfaced before, all I can say is in my world of WWII USMC Aviation Squadron patches, we are still finding new patches/ variations and squadron info you'd think someone would have stumbled on in the last 70 or so years!! And with the internet, there is no question we can now put a lot of the parts and pieces together to complete the puzzle.... Great thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted January 6, 2013 Share #42 Posted January 6, 2013 1st US Army MPs in Aywaille, Belgium late 1944... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodybucket28th Posted January 6, 2013 Share #43 Posted January 6, 2013 Thank you for sharing this beautiful pic Johan! regards, Mat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GITom1944 Posted January 12, 2013 Share #44 Posted January 12, 2013 Here's another reference pic. Doesn't look like much at this size but there's an enlargement below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GITom1944 Posted January 12, 2013 Share #45 Posted January 12, 2013 Carentan June 19, 1944. There's also another pic showing the insignia on the Magnum photos website http://www.magnumphotos.com/ taken by Robert Capa. Search for PAR78102. I'd post the pic but don't want to infringe on the copyright. Close-up of above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavscout6b Posted July 2, 2013 Share #46 Posted July 2, 2013 I had initially wondered if the "white" was not actually yellow, but I guess it has been determined to be white and period correct. The "SG" markings are a brief, immediate post-war addition for "Security Guard". Those were used by non-MP units, assigned to various guard duties in the military government section, from May-September of 1945. http://5thrangerbn.com/5th-ranger-helmets-pt-ii-the-sg-liners/ Also to note; the 713th MP Battalion was directly assigned to First Army HQ during WW2. It remained with them from D-Day (clearing traffic from Omaha Beach), until the end of the war (providing security at the Potsdam Conference). When the First Army returned to the US in late-1945, the battalion was moved to Luxembourg, where most personnel were discharged from the US Army, and sent home. It was deactivated, and later reconstituted as the 317th MP Bn. USAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted August 31, 2013 Share #47 Posted August 31, 2013 FWIW I spotted this one in the Baugnez Museum (Belgium) earlier this week... Don't know its history though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgawne Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share #48 Posted August 31, 2013 Unfortunately "SG" can also stand for "Special Guard" which is in the official 1944 Army dictionary as a standard term for guards assigned to a specific structure or area not covered by another unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted October 12, 2013 Share #49 Posted October 12, 2013 Here's another of the SG marked helmets... Still taken from George Stevens' D-Day to Berlin footage.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max0073 Posted October 14, 2013 Share #50 Posted October 14, 2013 Great picture ! Thank you. So pre-May '45 for sure Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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