1840 1860 1872 sabres and swords

[noworky]

I aquired this saber and was told it was an officer's 1840 Cavalry saber. Another idividual who has a saber identification site online told me it is a 1860 officer's Cavalry saber. Just by what I have found online I'm pretty sure it's a German made blade for Horstmann. Both individuals said the saber was Civil War era. I know very little about sabers but do have some reference material on the way. Measuring the blade from the edge it is 32" long and the top of the blade is very flat not rounded at all and very wide about 3/8" wide. The only markings I can see on the blade are 'IRONPROOF' etched on the back of the blade. And etched on the side is W H HORSTMANN & SONS PHILADELPHIA. The one guy told me the blade was made in Germany for HORSTMANN and the saber was probably assembled in Philadelphia. What do you saber experts out there think?

[noworky]

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[Dirk]

Not an expert, but it sure looks like a officers model 1840....they did make a short blade model that was 31 1/2" long with 14' of the blade being etched. That drag on the scabbard matches p218 of Thillmann's Civil War Cavalry and Artillery Sabers."

[KurtA]

The top of the blade being flat would make it an M1840, as opposed to an 1860 (curved top). It's a really great sword!

Kurt

[noworky]

Dirk here are few more pictures, the scabbard tip inside of the drag must have rusted out and was crudley repaired once upon a time.

[noworky]

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[Dirk]

Thank you for the close ups!....Kurt's far better at ID'ing then I am so take his lead on this....I think the scabbard looks European also...examples in the book quoted above showed thinner rings and ring mounts on the scabbard...I guess Horstmann imported a variety of scabbard styles to go with this type of sword.... wonderful sword!

[noworky]

[noworky]

1840 Civil War era?

[Dirk]

I believe 1840's were used through the entire Civil War...and particularly at the start, before the 60's became wide spread, many sword dealers contracted with European firms to bring in 1840 models until 60 production could expand to meet the demand. I am guessing that an 1840 officers model would have been bought NLT the first year or two of the war?

[copdoc]

I am watching this with great interest. I don't know too much about these but have an import S&K (Schnitzler & Kirschbaum) M1840 and and Ames M1840 that was carried by my wife's GGGF so I read about them. The flat back M1840 "Wristbreaker" was copied from the French M1822. Google the M1822 and you can see some pics. They are pretty much the same. I posted my M1840 S&K on a German site looking for futher info and found to my surprise a lot of them knew it as the M1822 not the M1840. There were many variaitions made.

 

Jeb Stuart liked the M1840 and got as many as he could for his calvary. My Wife's GGGF rode with his toops. I forgot the unit.

 

One collector told me the S&Ks are M1840s as they were order by the Army. The imports not purchased by the US are referred to as "private purchase". Does anyone now for sure? (This may be like the, there is no P17 rifle it is a US M1917, thing I usually say P17 even though it is not really correct)

 

Here is a link on the initial order for the S&Ks and the Ames

http://www.awod.com/cwchas/m1840.html

 

Our German friends were very nice about posting in both English and German (as I did because of the poor German). There is a pic of my S&K

http://www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum.de/t...ight=m1822&

[SARGE]

Noworky,

 

Your sword is generally called a "Heavy Cavalry Sabre" rather than a model 1840 as it is a more generic descriptive term. These officer swords were privately purchased (as are almost all officer swords) and often do not conform strictly to pattern sabres that are items of issue.

 

Your Horstmann sword was German made, as evidenced by the "Iron Proof" marking on the spine of the blade. It was imported by Horstmann and sold to US Cavalry officers before and during the US Civil War. Here is another example of a Horstmann marked sword of your type that has a flat backed blade with the same etching as yours. It also has the "Light Cavalry" style swelled grip of the so-called 1860 pattern sabre (that began manufacture in 1859) instead of the flatter 1840 style grip. This particular sword has an almost identical blade and etching to your sword and was made by Weyersberg in Solingen and has the single king's head marking on the reverse ricasso as well as the Horstmann name in the blade etching.

 

 

Copdoc,

 

Is your sword an officer style sword or a plain enlisted style Cavalry sabre? Often these Schnitzler u. Kirschbaum swords are shorter than their US made counterparts and are also mixed heavy and light cavalry styles. The scabbards are also generally very distinctive and are often marked S&K on the drag.

 

I hope this is helpful.

[noworky]

Sarge and all who commented thank you very much for the information. The sabre is a nice addition to my Cavalry collection so now that leaves the 1860 and 1872 to be found! Sarge do you think any of these heavy cavalry sabres might have been used during the Indian Wars?

[copdoc]

Copdoc,

 

Is your sword an officer style sword or a plain enlisted style Cavalry sabre? Often these Schnitzler u. Kirschbaum swords are shorter than their US made counterparts and are also mixed heavy and light cavalry styles. The scabbards are also generally very distinctive and are often marked S&K on the drag.

 

Hi Sarge

Thanks, They are both heavy flat back heavy calvary sabres. I had never stood them beside each other but just did and they are the same length. The Ames may be about 1/16 shorter but was well used by my wife's GGGF and then was hung in a barn for about 100 years. The S&K is in much better condition.

 

The Ames prob was enlisted style (that does mean no scroll work on guard and no acid etching right?)but blade is very rusted and it was missing the guard and handle which I replaced with a replica. I keep hoping the original will show up since we are back in the area. I doubt if it was ever thrown away and hope someone just put it in a drawer. Yes I know, wishful thinking.

 

I will get a pic of them beside each other if you would like to see both.

 

The S&K has no US markings that I can find. according to the below reference they were not marked with US anywhere.

 

http://www.awod.com/cwchas/m1840.html

 

 

Dissatisfaction with the M1833 Dragoon saber was raised by several dragoon officers, so on December 24, 1838, the Ordnance Department was instructed to purchase British, French, and Prussian sabers for field-testing. 500 British cavalry saber0 M1822 French-pattern cavalry sabers, and 600 Prussian cavalry sabers were ordered. Favorable reports on the 1822 French sabers, tested by the 1st Dragoon Regiment stationed in the west was announced in July, 1840. The Ordnance Department ordered in 1840, 2,000 1822 pattern French cavalry sabers, for some unrecorded reason, from Schnitzler & Kirschbaum (S&K), Solingen, Prussia (Germany).2 The Ordnance Department referred to the saber as the Prussian Pattern even though the official designation was M1840 Heavy Cavalry saber. The S&K made sabers were inspected in Prussia and none of them had U.S. markings or U.S. inspector marks. They were shipped to New York in April and May, 1841.3

[SARGE]

Sarge and all who commented thank you very much for the information. The sabre is a nice addition to my Cavalry collection so now that leaves the 1860 and 1872 to be found! Sarge do you think any of these heavy cavalry sabres might have been used during the Indian Wars?

 

Noworky,

 

You are certainly welcome. I like cavalry sabres too.

 

Are you looking for 1860 & 1872 officer or enlisted cav sabres?

 

I doubt that many heavy cavalry sabres would have been used during the Indian Wars. It is certainly possible that a still serving officer would retain his Civil War sword and continue to carry it after 1872. Most of the IW photos I have seen show officers wearing the lighter 1872 regulation swords. Enlisted men would have probably been issued the light cavalry (1860) sabre. Since this sword remained regulation until the sword trials after the turn of the century, even the (then) newly made iron hilt Ames 1906 swords were of this pattern.

 

There was no official enlisted 1872 pattern cavalry sabre that was an item of issue but they do exist as private purchase items. Here is a photo of a heavy cavalry (1840) enlisted sword next to an 1872 enlisted style light cavalry sword to show the difference in size and weight.

 

 

Here is an example of a US regulation light cavalry sabre made by Ames in 1906. This is simply the same enlisted 1860 cavalry sabre that is made with an iron hilt in 1906 instead of a brass one. The overall size and shape are the same.