1st Army patch with Mountain tab

[NorBn]

Earlier I was doing a little reading in the unifoms section and found a picture of a uniform with a 1st Army patch with a Mountain tab above, any more information about this strange combination?

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...howtopic=153776

[J_Andrews]

The Vermont National Guard (3-172nd Inf) has run a Mountain Warfare School for more than 20 years. Initially, its purpose was to train NG people, mostly for ops with the 10th Mountain Div. Later it started to train all manner of NG and USAR personnel. Last I heard, it had been upgraded to be the US ARMY Mountain Warfare School, as the main Army-wide institution/facility for this purpose (sometime after 2001).

 

IIRC the school at one point wore the 10th Mtn Div SSI, as the -172nd was a "round-out" unit of the 10th. Then as the school grew, the trainers assigned to the school (at least) switched to FUSA; wit the end of the round-out relationship (??), the Bn may have also switched.

 

The Bn and School perhaps never wore the Vermont STARC/Joint HQ patch.

 

The Mountain tab was, at least at State level, authorized.

[patches]

The Vermont National Guard (3-172nd Inf) has run a Mountain Warfare School for more than 20 years. Initially, its purpose was to train NG people, mostly for ops with the 10th Mountain Div. Later it started to train all manner of NG and USAR personnel. Last I heard, it had been upgraded to be the US ARMY Mountain Warfare School, as the main Army-wide institution/facility for this purpose (sometime after 2001).

 

IIRC the school at one point wore the 10th Mtn Div SSI, as the -172nd was a "round-out" unit of the 10th. Then as the school grew, the trainers assigned to the school (at least) switched to FUSA; wit the end of the round-out relationship (??), the Bn may have also switched.

 

The Bn and School perhaps never wore the Vermont STARC/Joint HQ patch.

 

The Mountain tab was, at least at State level, authorized.

 

 

Where is this school, at the old Post of Fort Ethan Allen?

[J_Andrews]

Its mailing address was Jericho VT, at a State Mil Reservation (name not recalled by me). IIRC the ROTC -- cadre and cadets -- at Norwich U were active supporters/participants of this, in its 10th Mt days.

[patches]

Its mailing address was Jericho VT, at a State Mil Reservation (name not recalled by me). IIRC the ROTC -- cadre and cadets -- at Norwich U were active supporters/participants of this, in its 10th Mt days.

 

 

Thank you J, out of curisoty I looked around on the web, it may be old Ft Ethan Allen, an area known as Camp Johnson.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Ethan_Allen

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/fac...-johnson-vt.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Mountain_Warfare_School

[jdamaso111]

if i can get a picture the next time im in lebbannon NH, the armory there has a huge rappelling tower with a giant first army mountain picture painted on it. the mountain unit in NH is now the 86th ibct http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86th_Infantry...nited_States%29 and again i have seen many soldiers sporting this patch as a former wartime ssi. The mountain school went from two phases to one two week phase and soldiers in new england can wear the rams head badge upon completion.

[seanmc1114]

This was mentioned in another post recently, but the 86th Infantry Brigade Combat Team was officially authorized to wear the "Mountain" tab as of 1 November 2007 as indicated by the Army's Institute Of Heraldry.

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Heraldry...nit.aspx?u=7992

 

Most likely, the tab was worn unofficially but with locally sanctioned approval over the First Army SSI prior to that.

[NorBn]

I know about the 86th IBCT and posted this a while back:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...c=73397&hl=

 

When I first read the topic with the First Army patch with Mountain tab I was wondering if this combination is authorized too.

[jdamaso111]

This was mentioned in another post recently, but the 86th Infantry Brigade Combat Team was officially authorized to wear the "Mountain" tab as of 1 November 2007 as indicated by the Army's Institute Of Heraldry.

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Heraldry...nit.aspx?u=7992

 

Most likely, the tab was worn unofficially but with locally sanctioned approval over the First Army SSI prior to that.

 

the tab and patch were authorized for wear officially

[JimmCapp]

I think I remember they started wearing the mountain tab in combination with the first army patch not long after we were activated around '86 or '87. We did a little training with them at Ft. Irwin in California and they were a little miffed that the 10th got to wear the tab and we were just a light infantry unit - not officially mountain warfare trained like they were.

They "set us straight" that they were the only unit in the army that was a "real" mountain unit - I guess the annual mountaineering training at Camp Merrill or the deployment to NWTC in Alaska didn't count.

[patches]

Back in the 60s ealry 80s the Army did have full fledged Mountain Infantry units, these were the 171st and 172nd Infantry Brigades ( seperate) at Forts Wainwright and Richardson Alaska respectivley, after 1971 only the 172nd. Thought these units were never designated as such, they were the only units that routinely trained in Mountain Warfare, Winter, Spring, Summer, And Fall. I know I was in the 4/9 Inf 172nd Inf Bde for a year and a half.

[J_Andrews]

Mr. Patches has hit the nub of it: The MOUNTAIN tab (like the AIRBORNE tab) is NOT say again NOT an individual award, and NOT based on completion of a school/course.

 

It is for UNITS designated as such by HQDA orders.

 

This is why it is incorrect for a single soldier who is parachute-qualified to put an AIRBORNE tab over any and all SSIs he may wear. This is also why many pathfinder and rigger teams are told not to wear AIRBORNE tabs -- a "unit" is rarely less than a full company, and it has to state clearly on the UNIT manning docs, etc. "AIRBORNE". A six-person PF team organic to the HQ Co of an Avn Bn/Gp isn't a "unit", same as a nine-person rigger team in a support bn/gp.

 

On the other hand, when and where the C.O. or S-1 or SMAJ doesn't care, they put on tabs anyhow.

[patches]

Mr. Patches has hit the nub of it: The MOUNTAIN tab (like the AIRBORNE tab) is NOT say again NOT an individual award, and NOT based on completion of a school/course.

 

It is for UNITS designated as such by HQDA orders.

 

This is why it is incorrect for a single soldier who is parachute-qualified to put an AIRBORNE tab over any and all SSIs he may wear. This is also why many pathfinder and rigger teams are told not to wear AIRBORNE tabs -- a "unit" is rarely less than a full company, and it has to state clearly on the UNIT manning docs, etc. "AIRBORNE". A six-person PF team organic to the HQ Co of an Avn Bn/Gp isn't a "unit", same as a nine-person rigger team in a support bn/gp.

 

On the other hand, when and where the C.O. or S-1 or SMAJ doesn't care, they put on tabs anyhow.

 

 

You know I guess the same applied to that 6th Division that was reactivated up there, the 10th Mountain Division was reactvated a short time earlier, why they just did send the 10th Mountain Division up to Alaska and make it a full fleadged mountain trained division and not a just a light division that occasionaly dabbled in high mountain warfare training is anybody guess, the 6th when reactivated could have filled that light division slot at Drum.

[hink441]

I found a picture of what looks like a NH guardsman wearing a 1st Army patch with a Mountain tab. It is being worn as a combat SSI on the right shoulder. Neat slice of video, wish I could see the vid but apparently it has been removed from the site.

 

[jdamaso111]

 

this is from the armory in lebbanon NH, ive been in south carolina training so i havent had much time to get on the internet.

[uberguido]

Theyve been messing with this for a while, the designation of deployed task forces think they get to have airborne or mountain tabs, during OEF 9-10 i was under Task Force Mountain Warrior in the eastern mountains, and 4ID totally took the 4ID logo and authorized a mountain tab above it as a deployment patch, it was even painted on the tower in Jallalabaad......well our General threw a fit and McChrystal (however you spell him) decided it was NOT to be additional and along with the Brass at HRC the tabs AIRBORNE and MOUNTAIN are "Unit specific and any addition to a pre-existing unit without the tab is unauthorized, which also applies to Task Force designations". that was in an old MILPER message put out after this 4ID thing went over like a fart in church, so yeah, its a total no-go, and did not sit well with Mountain Warrior. someone had to repaint that tower! haha

[patches]

A MOUNTAIN Tab 1st Army sighting, with that Rams Head Badge.

 

 

 

 

Colonel David Freeman, Vermont National Guard.

 

An interesting array of ribbons, though some are unfamilar too me, most likely Guard related.

 

This is his service record, though there are no dates givin unfortunetely.

 

Col Freeman enlisted as a Private in the Vermont Army National Guard while a junior in high school. Commissioned through Officer Candidate School and a Combat Arms qualified officer in both armor and Infantry branches. Leadership positions include: - Armor Platoon Leader - Commander- 1st Battalion, 172nd Armor - Operations Officer, Logistic Officer (S-4) and Executive Officer of the 86th BDE - Served as Developer of the Army Mountain Warfare Program (3rd BN 172nd MT Infantry and the Army Mountain Warfare School - First Commandant of the Army Mountain Warfare School - Served as Team Leader / Coach of the Armed Forces Sports Program - Currently serves in a command position in the Vermont State Guard - Life member, National Guard Association of the United States - Member, Association of the United States Army - Member, Military Officers Association of America - Member, Post #10, (Barre) of the American Legion

[seanmc1114]

Member of Charlie Company 3rd battalion 172nd Infantry of the New Hampshire national Guard demonstrating rappelling techniques to a member of the El Salvador Mountain Commando Unit. His MOUNTAIN tab worn with his First Army SSI as a combat patch is partially obscured by his pocket flap.

[seanmc1114]

This image showing the Army National Guard Schools SSI with MOUNTAIN tab appears on the page for the Army Mountain Warfare School on the Fort Benning website. Any idea if this patch combo is actually worn or is it just a logo?

 

http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/amws/

 

[seanmc1114]

Army Col. Gary Varney (right) responds to a reporter's question during a Nov. 20, 2001, Pentagon press briefing on the cold weather training and capabilities of U.S. forces. Commandant of the Army National Guard Mountain Warfare School Lt. Col. Terry Lambert (left wearing the First Army SSI with MOUNTAIN tab) joined Varney for the briefing.

[12A54]

Re: Colonel David Freeman, Vermont National Guard. A full Colonel wearing marksmanship badges whose highest award is an Army Achievement Medal? Seems a bit odd in light of his "biography".

[seanmc1114]

Re: Colonel David Freeman, Vermont National Guard. A full Colonel wearing marksmanship badges whose highest award is an Army Achievement Medal? Seems a bit odd in light of his "biography".

 

I was actually thinking the same thing myself and also wondering how he earned the Army Good Conduct Medal if he enlisted in the Vermont National Guard.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Interesting! I saw the 1st Army with the "mountain" tab at the Food Court at Camp Doha, Kuwait some time in mid-2004. I said "what the hell?" Went over and talked to one of the soldiers and he explained to me that they were either a Vermont or NH Army Reserve unit and authorized to wear this patch.

[jdamaso111]

 

I was actually thinking the same thing myself and also wondering how he earned the Army Good Conduct Medal if he enlisted in the Vermont National Guard.

 

If he served in an AGR status he could have been awarded it. Another way is to deploy that is how i was awarded mine and i am in the guard.

[Mike34charlie]

Great thread men.