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M6 Repros- Here We Go!


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Hey Gang! Just stumbled on this ebay ad. Item #-110941358819. M6 scabbards, " Buy Now $88". This seller makes no bones about repros. They look good,- too good. But, he has them all, Barwood, L&C, Milsco, Moose, SBL, and Viner Bros.. We're all gonna have to be on our "A" games. Got to figure out the finer points of differences from the originals. My concern is long term, and aging. Check them out, and study them. Hopefully, we can get them on a repro page at some point. Thought everyone might be interested. SKIP

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Gunbarrel- Thanks for putting them on the thread. They really are nice! What worries me is I still need an original Moose, and SBL for my collection. I've got to really study these repros. SKIP

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Thanks, Skip. They are made by Moore Leather in the UK.

 

http://www.mooreleather.co.uk/scabbards/ww2-us-m6-scabbards

 

 

I've seen these at first hand. They are frighteningly accurate. It's only their "newness" which distinguishes them as reproductions.

"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!"

 

Winston Churchill

" Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans."

John Winston Lennon

 

 

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Sabrejet-Are you finding them at collector shows? And what do they cost in pounds, at these shows? You're right about being new as a discriminator, but I actually have several originals (for many years), in mint condition. SKIP

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Sabrejet-Are you finding them at collector shows? And what do they cost in pounds, at these shows? You're right about being new as a discriminator, but I actually have several originals (for many years), in mint condition. SKIP

 

 

Yes...at UK shows. They are relatively expensive as the website indicates, but hand-made and of good quality. In dollars around $75 a piece? They need oiling to tone down the natural leather.

"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!"

 

Winston Churchill

" Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans."

John Winston Lennon

 

 

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Sabrejet-Thanks for the info. I have yet to see them here. But, can see very over-inflated prices, and claims of legitimacy when I do. Picked up a cheap "WMCO" recently for comparison, and cause I wanted one. The coffin like staples do not even go through both pieces of leather. But these are obvious fakes. The ones by Moore Leather are not.

Gregory- Not sure about the Jerry Lee (WPG) made ones. Do you have pics that could be posted?

The Raleigh show is 15-16 Sep, I'm gonna have to study. SKIP

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Gregory-They are good. But, compare to an original Milsco, you can note that the center of the "M" does not come all the way to the bottom, and the "4" is not open at the top like an original. These are known facts about Milsco. But it's some of the others that throw me. The Moore , M3s have correct "M"s, not all M6s had open top "4"s, the stitching, the rivets, even the small holes on the L&C belt loops. This is extremely good attention to detail. You literally have to have a known original in hand to compare with one of these repros. SKIP

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Gregory,

 

Thanks for posting the photos of the WPG reproduction. If you are ok with it, I'd like to use the photos in an M1 Carbine reproduction item pinned post on my website, Machinegunboards.com. Please let me know if you approve of my use of the photos, and I will credit your name and this website for their use. I firmly believe that reproductions should be documented as they occur. I have taken a very proactive stance on this, and as Past President of The American Thompson Association, our club adopted the only specific stance on reproduction items in firearm collector circles. I would like to see the same or similar stance adopted into the bylaws of other collector clubs.

 

Here is a link to my reproduction Thompson item pinned post:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=9657

 

Here is a downloadable Power Point file that goes into even more detail. Some of this applies to other items besides Thompsons.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/TATA/20...ture%202010.pdf

 

Here is the M1/M2 Carbine forum on my board, where I will start a pinned post on reproduction items of this genre:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/ind...hp?showforum=17

 

Thanks!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgwehr.com

NRA Life Member
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association

International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

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Gregory,

 

Thanks for posting the photos of the WPG reproduction. If you are ok with it, I'd like to use the photos in an M1 Carbine reproduction item pinned post on my website, Machinegunboards.com. Please let me know if you approve of my use of the photos, and I will credit your name and this website for their use. I firmly believe that reproductions should be documented as they occur. I have taken a very proactive stance on this, and as Past President of The American Thompson Association, our club adopted the only specific stance on reproduction items in firearm collector circles. I would like to see the same or similar stance adopted into the bylaws of other collector clubs.

 

Here is a link to my reproduction Thompson item pinned post:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=9657

 

Here is a downloadable Power Point file that goes into even more detail. Some of this applies to other items besides Thompsons.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/TATA/20...ture%202010.pdf

 

Here is the M1/M2 Carbine forum on my board, where I will start a pinned post on reproduction items of this genre:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/ind...hp?showforum=17

 

Thanks!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgwehr.com

NRA Life Member
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association

International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

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Gregory,

 

Thanks for posting the photos of the WPG reproduction. If you are ok with it, I'd like to use the photos in an M1 Carbine reproduction item pinned post on my website, Machinegunboards.com. Please let me know if you approve of my use of the photos, and I will credit your name and this website for their use.

Hello David,

 

No problem, use my images for your needs.

 

Best regards

 

Gregory

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Gregory-They are good. But, compare to an original Milsco, you can note that the center of the "M" does not come all the way to the bottom, and the "4" is not open at the top like an original. These are known facts about Milsco. But it's some of the others that throw me. The Moore , M3s have correct "M"s, not all M6s had open top "4"s, the stitching, the rivets, even the small holes on the L&C belt loops. This is extremely good attention to detail. You literally have to have a known original in hand to compare with one of these repros. SKIP

Hello Skip,

 

Yes, you are right, there are various small but visible differences between stamping on repro and original. Here is an original.

post-75-1346745824.jpg

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Gregory- Again, Milscos are fairly easy to figure. Now, the repro Moose, that's a challenge. the Moore version even has the correct 10 staples in the opening of the scabbard, the others all have the correct 8. I'm considering buying an SBL, and Moose for comparison. Just hate to spend $88 for a repro. SKIP

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  • 4 weeks later...
good options for M6 scabbard.

The first thing I see is the leather is wrong.The original leather was made by a different process.

The color doesn't match an original.WWII leather was rpoessed with chemicals that the don't use today.

Dennis

 

No plan just bigger guns.

 

Wanted to buy 10th Mountain Division greenback

 

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The first thing I see is the leather is wrong.The original leather was made by a different process.

 

WHAT process exactly?

The leather on the Moore Leather made M6's is vegetable tanned - not a process that has changed that much in the last 60 years.

 

The color doesn't match an original.WWII leather was rpoessed with chemicals that the don't use today.

 

As for colour match - no surprise there!

 

The original WW2 scabbards will have had 60-70 years or exposure to sunlight (UV rays) & also rain, mud, sweat, leather dubbing, boot polish, etc. which would all add to the leather on the originals becoming darker over time.

 

I have had a similar conversation MANY times regarding leather colour on orginal items; most often regarding the M1907 slings that I make & also the M3 holsters.

 

I approach my research from two angles.

1. I have a Honours degree in War Studies so I'm a qualified military historian well used to doing extensive research from many sources.

2. I have over 30 years of leatherwork experience - and have not only spent a good percentage of that time using said skills as my sole source of income but I have also worked in some specialist leathergoods factories (access to & knowledge of some very specialised, role-specific, industrial machines etc.)

I've also spent time as a QM at an army base.

 

To most people "russett" is a nice tan/brown shade of colour.

Quite a few WW2 US issue leather items were required to be made of "russett" leather.

So, that all appears simple? Not quite...

To a leatherworker "russett" is also the term used to describe a tanned hide that has not had any dye added to it & is in its natural off-pink/tan state.

So, a leather goods factory is told to manufacture item "XYZ" using veg. tanned russett hide.

Have a guess what colour said items will be on leaving the factory?

 

The Moore made M6 is based on an M6 that a GI would have been issued at his QM store back in '43...hence the colour.

I have quite a few pics of what newly issued russett leather looks like! Bright!!

Would a QM back then have been issuing leather kit dating back to the American Civil War?

My M1907 slings at first were also seen as being too new looking...now that some of them have had a few years use they look like lightly used originals.

WHY the insistance that repro kit is made to look like a 70 year old original - my opinion is that the opposite approach is safer? YMMV

 

Put it another way:

If I wanted to scare collectors I could easily make an M6 from old leather & age the fittings & undo a couple of the dimensions I changed, etc.

I can also age new leather very easily. Very. Well, I say "scare" - nobody would know unless I told them...but I want to sell reproductions not fakes.

 

My goal with ALL the leather kit I make, is make it UP TO the correct specification for the day on which an original would have been issued.

 

 

As an aside:

 

I contacted Dalbert about 2 weeks ago regarding these repro's, to see if he'd be interested in additional information on the differences between the Moore made M6's & the genuine article to enable him to post said info on his site as a benefit to his collectors. Not had any reply yet, but the offer still stands.

 

Have had several interesting PM's with SkipH on the other hand. :thumbsup:

I reminded Skip that I used to be a member on here (have just rejoined with the same user name) & had discussed this M6 repro project on this forum back in 2007 - so nothing has been done with the intent of fooling collectors; purely to put an item "out there" for the serious re-enactors who want more authenticity without having to sacrifice a genuine original item for field use.

The secondary reason being that finding an original M6 back in the UK in the late '80s = 2 hopes; none & Bob. (& see below! :( )

 

When I started the M6 project I had handled ONE genuine M6...uno. I still do not own an original example.

In the last 25 years I have handled another two genuine M6 scabbards - one about 4 or 5 years ago in Bastogne that I repaired for one of the other re-enactors & the third one I have had access to was last month when I repaired an M6 that was mailed to me from a US collector.

 

From my basic records there are less than 2 dozen of the Moore M6's around. Not too many are in the US - about a dozen maybe - so the chances of running into one are slim.

I take my time with them to get each one of them right...compare them to the Chinese & Indian made IMA & other vendor M6's to see the difference!

I'd rate my current Moore M6's as being about 95% accurate to a WW2 original & they are about to improve slightly - but I will NEVER do a straight 100% repro. as that's not the aim of the exercise!

 

Happy to provide more info to anyone needing it :D

 

Jon Moore

saddler

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Well said Jon. I like your approach to making your reproductions in "factory fresh" condition, just as they would have been when issued. A careful study of WW2 photographs, even in black & white, will reveal leather items such as scabbards, holsters and boot cuffs in light, untreated natural leather, as you describe...in other words "new"! The stuff we have in our collections has mellowed with age, been oiled, waxed or polished etc., and is evidently not as it left the factory...only the passage of time can add such a patina. However, re-enactors seem to be resistant to "new" looking kit, as though it's somehow "inaccurate". Everything we have was new once! You can apply the same principle to repro '41 field jackets. Used, 67 year old examples have invariably faded to a pale tan shade. Some repros are actually made in this shade. When new, such jackets were a distinctly green-ish shade. Re-enactors are sometimes resistant to this more accurate colour...just like "natural" leather. Strange isn't it! :think:

"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!"

 

Winston Churchill

" Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans."

John Winston Lennon

 

 

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donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

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Well said Jon. I like your approach to making your reproductions in "factory fresh" condition, just as they would have been when issued. A careful study of WW2 photographs, even in black & white, will reveal leather items such as scabbards, holsters and boot cuffs in light, untreated natural leather, as you describe...in other words "new"! The stuff we have in our collections has mellowed with age, been oiled, waxed or polished etc., and is evidently not as it left the factory...only the passage of time can add such a patina. However, re-enactors seem to be resistant to "new" looking kit, as though it's somehow "inaccurate". Everything we have was new once! You can apply the same principle to repro '41 field jackets. Used, 67 year old examples have invariably faded to a pale tan shade. Some repros are actually made in this shade. When new, such jackets were a distinctly green-ish shade. Re-enactors are sometimes resistant to this more accurate colour...just like "natural" leather. Strange isn't it! :think:

 

I was thinking just the other day. Why are these guys so anti-green. :w00t:

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