OD7 Web Gear In Normandy-Discussion

[Shenkursk]

 

[Shenkursk]

 

[Shenkursk]

And.... I just acquired a M1936 field bag ("musette") dated 1941, made entirely of dark olive drab material. I'll post photos when they are available.

[alibi]

JQMD 1945 cover.

 

 

I did not mean to imply that JQMD only made canteen covers in OD in 1945, but also made them with OD and OG parts and all OG in 1945.

 

Something that may not be apparent in this matter is that the materials were separately contracted with manufacturers of cloth, webbing, snap fasteners, thread and etc. All of these items had separate specifications. The materials were then provided to the assembly or finished item contractor with capability to assemble leather and canvas. The materials may have been sent directly from the factory or from JQMD.

 

According to records the contractors continued to manufacture equipment items beyond the quantity in the contract with the materials allocated. The "overrun" items reported were usually 100-400 items. The reason these overrun items were reported was that the contractors were usually paid for them by purchase order, because it was tedious to modify or re-negotiate a contract to cover the cost.

 

It is likely that after the contractors manufactured as many complete items as they could with allocated materials that significant quantities of unused materials were sent to JQMD for utilization there or provided to other contractors. It is also possible that JQMD sent additional materials to the contractors to use up the remaining materials.

 

As inefficient as most of you believe the military-industrial complex was during the wars, or any time for that matter, the speed with which American industries converted to war production is remarkable. You may recall that Admiral Yamamoto IJN predicted that Japan could only hope to win the war if the United States capitulated in the first six months of hostilities. If the U.S. did not capitulate Japan was as certain to be defeated as was the Confederacy during the American Civil War. (Yea, I know yu die hod rebs still think ya couda' won.)

 

The President appointed boards of industrialists to "advise" how best to organize industry to war production. The most influential group was the War Production Board that prioritized, coordinated and allocated the production of raw and finished materials to get them to the manufacturers. The WPB was also responsible for the creation of facilities to manufacture the materials in the quantities required. The military made frequent changes to what was needed and of course was looking for innovative materials. The Marine Corps seemed more prone to make frequent changes to existing equipment and to examine and procure marginally useful equipment. How the WPB managed all of this is a credit to the Board and the United States.

 

Trying to make sense of the equipment fielded by examining examples and looking at photographic images is like the story of the blind men given the task of describing an elephant. One man touched a side and said the elephant is a great expanse of slowly curving hairless hide. Another felt the trunk and said the animal is a large snake like animal. A third man touched an ear and said an elephant is like a large leaf. This goes on but I think you get the idea.

 

What I have found is that there is a much larger picture to all of this that often tells a different story from what can be determined from examination of equipment and photographs. In my research I examined Civil War era canteens, acquired books and other materials. I thought I had a pretty good idea of what the procurement of canteens from various manufacturers during the American Civil War was about. But the more I knew the more I was, if nothing else, convinced that examining existent canteens and photo images that rarely show canteens is misleading to understanding the how and why of the product that was issued to troops.

 

You are fortunate that 1000s of photographs were taken during WWII, both official and unofficial, and that you have veterans to talk too. Photographs can be a wonderful tool but can also be misleading, because of misidentification or no identification which means the viewer has to figure out what the image is "telling" us. It is not unusual for the illustrations in books to use images that were not taken in the time and place represented, but in general illustrates a point in the book. Trying to sort out what the images have to offer to you in understanding the reality is an historical detective's challenge. A broad general knowledge, and sometimes in-depth knowledge, is often needed to identify every "clue" in the image that provides time, place and the who information that is critical to understanding what it is telling you. It is when you can start saying "that's correct," "that's wrong" or "that makes sense" that you can get what you need from the images. At least in this way you should be able to get a handle on what items to specify in your re-enactor group organizations. The only issue then is compliance and perhaps compromise.

 

The one aspect to this that I warn you to avoid is absolutes and conclusions based on a little information, including veterans that have failing memories, and may tell you what you want to hear. I interviewed a WWI veteran that was adamant that he carried a "thirty-thirty Enfield" so sometimes a certain amount of interpretation is needed. Without a knowledge base of the equipment used you might accept without question that a photo image or a veteran was providing accurate information. A micro sampling of anything is insufficient to declare an absolute in the macro. Even the best DNA analysis is never declared 100% accurate.

[Gregory]

I did not mean to imply that JQMD only made canteen covers in OD in 1945, but also made them with OD and OG parts and all OG in 1945.

Of course, you are right, they manufactured of all materials "on hand" as you very good described this situation. No better proof than three-tone JQMD cover of 1945 I posted below.

[Gregory]

Next OD#7 canvas gear manufactured in 1944 that theoretically might serve in Normandy campaign.

[Bill in VA]

Next OD#7 canvas gear manufactured in 1944 that theoretically might serve in Normandy campaign.

 

Theoretically??? There's plenty of evidence, both photographic and first-hand accounts of OD#7 web gear being used for the Normandy invasion. As I stated in the first post of this thread (which was originally a reply to an earlier thread started by someone else) many of the vets, especially the airborn vets said they actively sought out the OD#7 web gear because they thought it "looked sharp" and considered it "high speed."

[Gregory]

Theoretically??? There's plenty of evidence, both photographic and first-hand accounts of OD#7 web gear being used for the Normandy invasion. As I stated in the first post of this thread (which was originally a reply to an earlier thread started by someone else) many of the vets, especially the airborn vets said they actively sought out the OD#7 web gear because they thought it "looked sharp" and considered it "high speed."

"Theoretically" wording means only that I do not know if for example the American Canvas Mfg. Co. delivered its OD#7 products for the ETO forces and before June 1944. The same goes for Boyt Co. Moreover the machetes are not so popular in the ETO though several paras equipped with them can be seen at the D-Day era photographs.

 

Nobody denies that OD#7 field gear was popular before and during invasion. At least Michel De Trez's albums show the paras with darker shade field gear, for example the carriers for M1943 e-tools.

 

Best regards

 

Greg

[Gregory]

One more interesting canteen cover of the JQMD manufactured in 1945. In reality it is like jeans trousers -- material is other than typical US WWII era canvas and the cover is sewn by yellow gimp.

[easystreet]

Here's a nice Carbine Clip Pouch, Dated 1943.

 

Rich M

[easystreet]

Here's a couple of Jefferson QMD Canteen Covers, dated 1942.

 

Rich M

[easystreet]

Here are three different canteen covers for comparison.

 

The one in the upper leftt is dated 1941. Not sure just what color it is, but it is definitely DARK.

 

The one in the upper right is dated 1942. It is mostly khaki, but the binding material is dark green and the bottom is s different green.

 

The bottom one is one of the JQMD canteen covers shown earlier, just for comparison.

 

Rich M

[easystreet]

More pics of the 1941 dated "dark" canteen cover.

 

Rich M

[easystreet]

More pics of the 19412 dated khaki canteen cover.

 

Rich M

[easystreet]

Here are three 1944 dated shovel covers. One is Dark green and the other two are khaki or "transitional" (Khaki canvas with Dark Green binding or webbing). All have the adjustable belt hook configuration on the back.

 

Rich M

[easystreet]

I have three more 1944 dated covers. All are Dark Green and all have the adjustable belt hooks.

 

I also have three covers that are 1943 dated. Two are Dark Green and one is Khaki. All have the "fixed" or non-adjustable belt hooks on the back (sewn down, similar to the earlier style canteen cover belt hooks). I took pics of one of the Dark Green 1943 covers and I will try to post them tomorrow. The other two are "out on loan" right now. I will try to get them back and take pics of them also.

 

Rich M

[General Apathy]

 

Here are all the colors you want in one item, I posted this before on an earlier thread a few months back, but maybe some of the new members may not have seen this cover before. In the earlier thread the debate was on why do some reenactors expect all their equipment to be matching shades of material, when the army accepted items such as these.

 

Remember all this stuff was expendable so perfection was not desired, sadly this also applied to the men using the stuff.

 

Cheers ( Lewis )

[craig_pickrall]

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=2121

 

This is the link to the thread Ken mentions. It has several other pieces of "mismatched color" gear as well. It is a good read for anyone concerned with the "proper" colors for displays.

[easystreet]

Two more Shovel Covers, both dated 1943.

 

One is khaki with the darker green trim.

 

The other is Dark Green OD.

 

I have noticed that all of the 1943 dated shovel covers I have owned have the "non-adjustable" sewn belt hooks on the back. Whereas, it seems that all the 1944 and later covers have the adjustable belt hooks on the back.

 

Rich M

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

GEN S CORP 1943

 

What the heck is this?

 

 

 

[General Apathy]

I believe the photographs shown in the previous post are of an original American manufactured first patten M-43 folding shovel cover. The large loop and the brass British style buckle are a post war Dutch conversion, as they used a mixture of surplus British and American equipment.

 

Cheers ( Lewis )

[LtRGFRANK]

I love the mixed colors. I will grab all I can even if I don't need that item for my collection. By the way Ken thanks for your book. Would have been lost collecting without it.

[General Apathy]

LtRGFRANK, hi and thank you for the kind words, it filled a slot fourteen years ago, but more information is now available through the huge interest since then and also through the use of websites. Also methods of printing and publishing costs have vastly altered, my book was one of the last produced by cut and paste. There were no digital cameras as today, and color printing was astronomic.

 

Thanks for your kind words and hope that you get great enjoyment from the hobby and friends you will meet.

 

Thanks Kenneth

[Michiel M.]

 

This photo shows Lt. R.Parsons (EXO E/502) and Cpt. W.Boltan (CO D/502) in Normandy.

You can clearly see the OD7 Shovel Cover and the OD7 Compass pouch.

Also notice the un-reinforced M42 Parsons' wearing.

 

Sorry for the small pic, for a bigger one check 'Screaming Eagles at Normandy', page 89

[abd1943]

GEN S CORP 1943

 

What the heck is this? :think:

 

 

 

 

 

I know this is an old thread, but have a GEN S CORP 1943 M1943 shovel cover in transitional color. Mine has not been modified with the European hanger though.