Jump to content

Which insignia do you wear on your 'Class A' and/or 'Ike' - jacket ?


Recommended Posts

I thought it might be useful to make a seperate topic about wearing insignia during re-enactment. Personally i prefer not wearing to much insignia on my Class A during re-enactment. Why ? Simply , because i never earned one of those medals. I think it's kinda disgraceful towards veterans if you pin every medal available on your 'Class A' and/or 'Ike' - jacket. Since i re-enact Airborne i just sewed on the 502nd jumpwing oval with a jumwing pinned on it. As for the rest , i keep it simple with only EM collardiscs.

 

What do you guys think about this matter ?

 

Greetings,

Jan

Link to post
Share on other sites

If i can just mention the oposition for a moment, where there isnt the same level of "didn't earn it" disaproval

 

In the German forces in 44-45 (the bit everybody Re-enacts) they had already seen 5-6 times as much action as most US troops Had by May 45. Bearing in mind that they wear their awards on combat uniform and that unless you are 18 and representing a new relacement, then you are either dead, or you will have been awarded. EK2, OST, INF Assualt, Black wound, at an Absolute Minimum.

If you then have a unit representing a platoon of soldiers of this period, if most of them are not wearing these and the senior folks wearing even more, then clearly you are stationed in Norway.

Latewar German troops without awards is just silly. not Respective.

 

So back to the US side of things, if you are doing an impression that would on average, have certain awards then you should wear them, if they did not have them, then you should not have them.

Clearly if you are wearing these on a ww2 uniform, then unless youve aged pretty badly, nobody is going to think that you are saying you earned them.

 

What troops would actually be wearing class As :

those stationed in the US who haven't gone anywhere yet = minimal awards

those in the UK who haven't gone to the continent yet = minimal awards

Those in the UK, 1st inf, 82nd Air In between med -Norm = Some awards

Those stationed in Germany when its all finished = some-more awards.

Those who are back in the US after the WAR = some-more + ducky.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For me on all my Class A uniforms regardless of Division being portrayed

 

ETO ribbon/ E/Mans good conduct ribbon

 

Drivers award.....with Mechanic/Driver -W/and Driver -T bars (this one for ARMOR impression only)

 

Marksmans badge with tab for weapon carried for that impression

 

Jump wings and representative oval (depending on particular PIR impression)...AIRBORNE impression only.

 

and as i am one of the "old guys" thanks Glen...the CIB

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a flame, Jan, but I find it more than a bit odd that you're willing to wear jump wings on your reenacting uniform, but not the CIB because "[you] didn't earn it." Every paratrooper I've ever met (WWII through present) will certainly tell you that they earned their jump wings. FWIW, even the US Army does not consider the CIB to be a decoration; they consider it an award. Again, my personal opinion is that if the typical soldier of whom you portray would've worn a CIB, it should be worn, just like wearing your jump wings if portray a paratrooper.

my .02

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jan,

 

You may want to drop the 502nd oval - it is almost impossible to find a wartime pic of them being worn.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jan,

 

Perhaps I should then ask you what date you base your 101st Airborne dress uniform on?

 

502nd troops wore the "Generic Parachute Infantry" dark blue with light blue edged patch early on in their training (as evidenced by the photos on the website you linked in). The exact same oval was worn by other units before they got their own colours.

 

The actual 502nd oval (light blue inner, dark blue outer) is virtually impossible to see on wartime photos.

 

As with the locations and type of cap patches being worn by 101st Airborne units, the date of the impression being portrayed matters a lot when talking about wearing of ovals as 502nd.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

Link to post
Share on other sites

hi Jan,

 

As a matter of interest, let me add the following potential dates to those photos of 502nd troopers - not guaranteeing that they're right, but it's based on good research and the items of insignia visible in the photos.

 

UNK = unknown date

US = taken in the US during training period

Post-war = either taken in Germany, or when back in the US

 

From top to bottom:

 

UNK US US

UNK US Post-war

US US US

England US US

UNK US (probably) Post-war

Post-war? US US

US UNK Post-war?

England US

Post-war (82nd uniform) UNK US?

Drawing with incorrect details US US

US UNK Post-war

US US US

Late 44 England England (probably for those two - could be late 44, early 45)

Late 44 Post-war? UNK (late 44/45)

UNK US US

UNK UNK US

UNK UNK UNK

US 1945 1945 (not oval in this last pic doesn't look like 502nd - outer looks white)

 

The ones in combat garb I could probably put dates on from info in books, but they don't really matter here.

 

My point is that if you're going to do a uniform, you need to make sure that the adornments are correct to the date.

 

Lloydy on here will tell you how much of a pain I am over stuff like this!! :D

 

Cheers,

Glen.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes but Glen...we all moan ...some of us more voiciferously than others ;) ...but at the end of the day its ALL about getting the particular impression RIGHT isnt it.....so we dont end up looking like a bunch of FARBS.

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

Link to post
Share on other sites

I stand correct here. Thank for the info guys. It's been on there for so long and actually no-one told me it was wrong , so thanks !

 

Jan

Link to post
Share on other sites

No problem Jan - we're all learning all the time. No-one is ever an expert in anything, and we're always revising what we think based on new findings that come out.

 

Anyone who claims to know all the answers is an idiot! :D

 

Glad to be of help!

 

Cheers,

Glen.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Yes but that only applies to medals for heroism and valour doesnt it Brian ?

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

Link to post
Share on other sites
CNY Militaria

All medals now issued by the govt, but since you are in GB, it won't really matter.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"There ya go with all the negative waves "again Brian.!!!!!.............

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personal opinion...

 

Except for wings, any class A uniform I wear bears only campaign ribbons from before I was born. Most bear the WWI and inter-war ribbons which I might have worn being an old fart "retread" during WWII. Other than that, I won't even wear a Good Conduct Medal.

 

I may be a bit anal about this but it partially comes from a fellow we had to finally eject from our group. LITERALLY, he didn't own a stitch of civilian clothing. He went to work each day in original WWII HBT's or paratrooper uniforms. On a class A uniform, he wore dammed near every medal offered and finally was stopped when he spoke of displaying a MOH. (Later learned he had been thrown out of the Army.) Perfect example of "Stolen Valor"!

 

I must confess, there is the exception that proves my rule. I have set up - and wore once - a uniform replicating that of Major Paul "Pappy" Gunn (my WWII hero) with all his medals and awards. As I said, I wore it once to an AAF bomb group reunion we were displaying at. But, to be honest, I just felt wrong and have never worn it again.

 

Tom

 

P.S. Because of my previous Civil War connection, I am still looking for the half blue - half gray Civil War campaign ribbon. Love to add it to a couple uniforms just for the humor value.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Wow, this topic has been all over at least two other chat sites recently, must be something in the water!

 

I normally try to wear the bare minimum on my Class A. From the majority of photos I have seen over the years it appears guys just didn't start wearing that much stuff on them until very late in the war, say after March of 1945. With my 82nd jacket I'll wear the EAMI, GC, Am. Def. and Am. Camp. jump wings and 505th/307th/456th (generic red artillery) oval and appropriate collar brass. My infantry (34th Div.) is even more basic, with just the ribbons and nothing else. I have worn a CIB in the past, but in the future probably won't, not because I feel it is wrong, but because, again, they don't seem prevalent on Class A uniforms until very late.

 

That being said, as long as it is historically accurate, I have no problem with what others wear on their Class A's.

 

As far as The Stolen Valor act, like any other law I believe there will always be the question of Intent involved. I have been reenacting for many years and have never heard a reenactor actually claim to have earned anything on his uniform or to act with the intent to defraud anyone with medals, etc.

 

Lastly, what we wear are not technically uniforms at all, they haven't been official uniforms for over 45 years?? Really, they are costumes and should be viewed as such. What we do is really a theatrical protrayal, not much different that what is done in movies, except we don't get paid millions of dollars!! :) I think anyone would be hard pressed to win a judgement against any reenactor over these issues, unless perhaps someone wore a MOH.

 

Anyone can have their opinions, and we all do, but bottom-line is this is a hobby and there is little anyone can do to stop anyone from wearing whatever they want.

 

My two cents! Good topic, thanks for all your intelligent responses!

 

Bill K.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Jan,

 

I agree with you 100%! The only insignia we can wear on our uniforms is that which we have earned. If you want to wear jump wings then you have to get jump qualified! As far as ribbons are concerned, campaign ribbons are fine but no Valor awards(unless you have really earned one in the military, in which case you are free to wear them), Fourageres are allowed as well because those were unit awards.

 

 

Cheers

Gary

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Bill,

 

I disagree with you on one point...these are not costumes! Obsolete uniforms yes, but real people wore these uniforms at one time, a costume on the other hand is made out of whole cloth to "represent" an article of clothing or uniform.

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

Wow, this topic has been all over at least two other chat sites recently, must be something in the water!

 

I normally try to wear the bare minimum on my Class A. From the majority of photos I have seen over the years it appears guys just didn't start wearing that much stuff on them until very late in the war, say after March of 1945. With my 82nd jacket I'll wear the EAMI, GC, Am. Def. and Am. Camp. jump wings and 505th/307th/456th (generic red artillery) oval and appropriate collar brass. My infantry (34th Div.) is even more basic, with just the ribbons and nothing else. I have worn a CIB in the past, but in the future probably won't, not because I feel it is wrong, but because, again, they don't seem prevalent on Class A uniforms until very late.

 

That being said, as long as it is historically accurate, I have no problem with what others wear on their Class A's.

 

As far as The Stolen Valor act, like any other law I believe there will always be the question of Intent involved. I have been reenacting for many years and have never heard a reenactor actually claim to have earned anything on his uniform or to act with the intent to defraud anyone with medals, etc.

 

Lastly, what we wear are not technically uniforms at all, they haven't been official uniforms for over 45 years?? Really, they are costumes and should be viewed as such. What we do is really a theatrical protrayal, not much different that what is done in movies, except we don't get paid millions of dollars!! :) I think anyone would be hard pressed to win a judgement against any reenactor over these issues, unless perhaps someone wore a MOH.

 

Anyone can have their opinions, and we all do, but bottom-line is this is a hobby and there is little anyone can do to stop anyone from wearing whatever they want.

 

My two cents! Good topic, thanks for all your intelligent responses!

 

Bill K.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Bill,

 

I disagree with you on one point...these are not costumes! Obsolete uniforms yes, but real people wore these uniforms at one time, a costume on the other hand is made out of whole cloth to "represent" an article of clothing or uniform.

Gary

 

 

Gary --

 

I am not sure I understand your point as your response seems to suggest you agree with me. What are these but items "made out of whole cloth to represent an article or clothing or uniform."??? Unless you are wearing and original item, which I doubt most reenactors do these days, then it is, by the definition you gave, in fact a costume. These things are not made by government contractors, not worn by the actual soldiers in combat or training during 1941-1945.

 

Please, I hope you take my point in the spirit of good hearted debate and not an attempt to antagonize anyone! :)

 

Best to you,

Bill K.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Bill,

 

No offence taken at all! Out here in the west though, a lot of reenactors do wear original Class A uniforms whenever they can find one that will fit. In those cases they are not costumes. I agree with you completely though on the uniforms from NCHS and others...those I too would classify as costumes.

 

 

Cheers!

Gary

Gary --

 

I am not sure I understand your point as your response seems to suggest you agree with me. What are these but items "made out of whole cloth to represent an article or clothing or uniform."??? Unless you are wearing and original item, which I doubt most reenactors do these days, then it is, by the definition you gave, in fact a costume. These things are not made by government contractors, not worn by the actual soldiers in combat or training during 1941-1945.

 

Please, I hope you take my point in the spirit of good hearted debate and not an attempt to antagonize anyone! :)

 

Best to you,

Bill K.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
leicanthrope

Personally, I don't think it's any more of a sin to wear [in the context of reenacting] decorations that you didn't earn, than to wear rank that you didn't earn. The most appropriate thing in my mind would be to wear a typical set of awards for an average example of whatever you're dressed up as. It seems farby, IMHO, to dress up as a grizzled infantryman and not wear a CIB, or to dress up as a paratrooper without jump wings.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not a living history enthusiast, but I would like to add my two and a half cents. Medals aside, I believe that the uniform itself is an earned priveledge to wear. On another note, soldiers were only permitted to wear their uniform for a short time after discharge, and could not wear them any time they pleased. (At least officially) I believe that medals, uniforms, jump wings, and everything else, boils down to one important factor. Integrity. If you are going to portray a WWII soldier, then do it right. Remember, you are not portraying a WWII veteran, but the soldier himself, as he was in 1939-45. Very few soldiers were awarded every medal in the book, per say, so neither do you. A realistic, believable impression is approprate. Do it with integrity, and do it with respect. It is that simple.

 

Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 6 months later...

Hi, i`ll refresh this topic. Yes i agree that`s not quite fair, to wearin all of your insignia on reenacting shows. For example Purple Heart. Behind this distinction stay many of pain, that many of us can`t even imagine. However same thing is with combat experiences, but we can accept that is more correct to wear that insignia, cause we are representative`s of these times and peoples witch do amazing things a nd beeing awarded for it. So we should show this things too. In my group now we try to establish some rules about wearin` insignia and medals. We planned to let wear this stuff to these guy`s witch (in our realities) earn this, not that who have lucky auctions win, or have more money assign for this items on ebay. Personaly, I do not wear any award or insignia, but it`s not told I never gonna do this. Maybe on future, now in my opinion i`m not disurf, i did not any amazing and valor thing on reenact filed that let me somehow take this honour of represent distincted soldiers. On this time I got honour to represent these not distincted ones and it`s not less. I motivate it, if i have to wear this, even for reenacting reasons, I should disurf for it somehow, I can`t disurf for it in battle, but here in our times and activity witch is reenacitng, are good oportunities to show how i can devote for my job.

And to Bellumbill: It will be uniform, not costume as long as you treat it as uniform. Definition of this costume belongs to these who wear it, and depent on it. Even more... How other people who watch you on reenacting show will interpret it, depend on your attitude about it. Maybe im young reenactor, but i saw many situations, when (IMO stupid) peoples told: "look what a funny costumes" then my fellows from my gruop with seriousness answer:"it`s not a costume, it`s U.S. Army uniform!". Believe me you wish to see they faces.

Regards, and ofcourse apologies for poor language, Bartek.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.