"Experimental" 1913 on Ebay...

[Spathologist]

Ebay 150880333099? is described as an "experimental" M1913 due to the lack of a serial number, and I thought it might make an interesting discussion.

 

The seller lays out his case for this saber being one of the first experimental ones, but I'm not so sure. I happen to have in my collection one of the first 200 M1913s made that were sent to the 11th Cavalry for testing. I believe that at least one other member here has examples from that batch. These are certainly among the first, if not the first, of the M1913s manufactured, and display some significant differences from the proffered saber.

 

The most obvious to me are the grips. Until around #1200, the grips were secured by screws entering from the right side. Somewhere around #1200, the grips were changed to be secured by screws entering from the left and this was continued to the end of production. The grips on this saber are secured from the left.

 

The early sabers also used a distinct serif font. Sometime before SN# 500, the font was changed to sans-serif, and this font was used for the duration of production. This saber has sans-serif font.

 

Somewhat less obvious is the roll on the edge of the guard. Springfield sabers have a "thick" roll. LF&C contract sabers have a "thin" roll. The first 200 serial numbered Springfield sabers have a distinctive roll, thick like the later Springfield sabers, but flattened. This saber has the later thick roll.

 

I found the significant wear on the 1913 date to be interesting, as that's directly opposite of where the serial number should be. I also think I see a shallowing of the tang where the serial number should be located.

 

I think what's being offered is actually a later 1913-dated saber with the serial number removed. Thoughts?

[Jack's Son]

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[Jack's Son]

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[Jack's Son]

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[Jack's Son]

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[Jack's Son]

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[Spathologist]

[tsellati]

 

Varangian,

 

I agree with everything you have stated and pointed out with the exception of the serial number being removed. Perhaps your eyes are a lot better than mine, but even with significant enlargement I cannot see any discernible difference in the surface metal where the serial number would have been and the surrounding area.

 

I would put forth a more likely explanation is that this example missed being serial numbered for some reason. Unless of course, there is no possible way for this to occur given the manufacturing process.

 

Tim

 

P.S. - When it comes to WWII Russian firearms any discrepancy from the norm is chalked up to a Friday afternoon and "Crazy Ivan" having too much Vodka while manning the assembly line at the Tula Arsenal.

[ccyooper]

Somewhere I have pictures of SN 1 which is stored at Carlisle Barracks. Is it just me being paranoid or does it look like pitting on both sides of the blade where the serial number should be? I have seen similar marks where very talented people have restored WT bayonets etc back to full length etc. Just an observation and thought.

 

Regards,

CC

[SARGE]

Varangian,

 

I too agree with your analysis, particularly concerning the style of markings and the lightness of the stamped date which could indicate some material removal on the ricasso.

[Spathologist]

Thanks for the feedback! The leather washer that was placed at the joint of the ricasso and guard is often a site of corrosion due to the moisture retention and tanning chemicals of the leather. There are still very significant pits on this part of the blade, and my thought was that someone ground off the corrosion and took the serial number and part of the date. Pure conjecture, we'll never know for sure.

[pony soldier]

Varangian:

 

I agree completley with you on this saber for a number of reasons. As you mentioned I also have another early specimen, SN33 with the guard markings "B-11" denoting issuance to the 11th cavalry for testing. These special marks only occurr on the first 200 made. The other features you describe are similar on mine.

 

The story which supports the saber is most interesting and I for one would like to have gotten more details about the relatives time in working at the Armory. What did they do and during what period.

 

For the saber itself I note these items. Agreed that the washer erosion is a true problem and occurrs in a number of survivors. One reason why I suspect that is in a lot of Springfield blades the washer is always missing and on the later LF&C variety (a late guest to the party) the washer is usually present. The troops is actual use may have discovered the problem too late to prevent damage and just removed it in further duty and saved the washer for garrison inspections.

 

In my eyes, if you look closely at the picture where the serial number should be, you will see the indent or "ghosting" of same. In particular the remmants of the "1" as still there along with other "ghosts". The reason for the "1" showing in that Springfield has the deeply impressed "1" , a trademark of their numbers. This would suggest that it is an early 1-1999 serial numbered 1913. I also see the "thiness of the tang in that area. From the looks of things, it would seem that some manner of banding went around both sides of the tang which allowed the serial number to be removed and resulted in the lightness of the "1913 without damaging any other areas such as the armory marks and the U.S.

 

As for experimentals, when Patton was at the Armory in 1913 to review the production of the new saber, it would seem that one or more of "samples" would have been produced under his overall sanctioning. That being the case surely they would have been according some special care and storage as unique specimens. Then it would have been possible such an item would have survived in an Armory vault and possibly "acquired" by an employee. That would have resulted in mint or nearly mint specimen, not one with the damage that it now shown.

 

Whle I find the green color of the guard very interesing similar specimens have been seen. As such using the comments expressed so far I believe that it is just a normal 1913 that has had its serial number removed.

 

Pony Soldier

[Spathologist]

SN33 with the guard markings "B-11" denoting issuance to the 11th cavalry for testing. These special marks only occurr on the first 200 made.

 

Mine is #112, marked "11 B 36". Does yours have a rack number?

[pony soldier]

Varangian:

 

Regarding the 1911 Patton, looking mine over again I see the impressed B/11, but I do see a trooper or "rack number". That is interesting in that yours does and my specimen does not. Wonder??? I see that other early 1911 serial number 128 has come full circle. I first found it on the John Gunderson website, then at J&M mitlitaria . On both sites it was for sale at $7,000. I am assuming that J&M bought it from Gunderson and after some time of no sale, it has now settled in for auction at "Cowan's" in their October 25 sale. I will write Cowan's and ask if it shows the B/11 marking and any others.

 

Did you see the Patton swordsman badge that was up on Ebay recently from a fellow in Louisana. First time started with a opening price of $2400 and a buy it now of $3000. As expected it did not sell, so he relisted with just a buy it now of $3000. That did not sell either and he has since not relisted. Would love to have it, but there is only so much money to go around. The story he told me was he got it from a women there whose husband had acquired it from a WW1 vet. Also stated that the vet may have not gotten it first, just collected or traded it from someone else. So the trail ended.

 

I am also looking at another 1911 which does retain the tapered washer, which is covering the serial number. The owner does not realize there is a number under that washer, thinks there is not one. The 1911 date shows clearly. I am writing him again about it and will ask if can see the B/11 stamping or any other marks.

 

Best of luck

 

Pony Soldier

[Spathologist]

Regarding the 1911 Patton, looking mine over again I see the impressed B/11, but I do see a trooper or "rack number". That is interesting in that yours does and my specimen does not. Wonder???

Here's a (not very good) pic:

 

I see that other early 1911 serial number 128 has come full circle. I first found it on the John Gunderson website, then at J&M mitlitaria . On both sites it was for sale at $7,000. I am assuming that J&M bought it from Gunderson and after some time of no sale, it has now settled in for auction at "Cowan's" in their October 25 sale. I will write Cowan's and ask if it shows the B/11 marking and any others.

The new pics show "D 11" stamped on the scabbard drag, so it looks like a D Co saber. It will be interesting to see what price it garners in open auction. A year ago I would have gone into hock for it, but I'll soon be making my first foray into civilian life in over 27 years, so I don't think I'll be making any major financial outlays until I get all that settled...