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Is this WWII USMC or Army HBT weave?


tsellati
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I am looking at this weave pattern and it looks like standard WWII USMC HBT weave, however it clearly is camo patterned. According to Grunt Gear all USMC camo patterned uniforms were manufactured using the Army HBT weave fabric. Did this only hold true for the P1942 camouflage clothing and not the P1944?

 

The book also states that "There is no Marine Corps camouflage herringbone twill except some examples made postwar most likely for the movie industry? Is this still the current state of understanding on this matter?

 

Thanks for the education.

 

Tim

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Tim- All examples of original Marine Corps camo I own or have seen in private collections or in the many number of museum archives I went into while researching Grunt Gear all were of the Army style HBT.

 

If anyone out there has an example of Chevron to Chevron weave of camo that is 100% WWII manufacture I would love to see it so if Grunt Gear reprints I can certainly update my research.

 

Alec

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I'm not an expert as Alec can be, but I never saw a camo HBT item with the specific USMC weave, even if I had some doubts in the past.

 

However, I noticed that pictures of camo weaves can be misleading because use and wear can make a legit Army weave pattern seem like a USMC one :think:

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Sometimes the weave looks different when you hold it at different angles when a good light is present.

The fabric in the photo looks OK to me :think:

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Here are some additional photos of the fabric. This definitely appears to be the USMC HBT weave to me and not the Army pattern. I suspect this 'frog skin' camo shirt may be of post-war manufacture, perhaps for use in a movie.

 

Tim

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Here is a close-up of a One-Piece Jungle Suit, made at H.D. Lee Mercantile in 1943; the 2 chevrons are easy to see here...

 

post-3226-1345054947.jpeg

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Here is a close-up of a One-Piece Jungle Suit, made at H.D. Lee Mercantile in 1943; the 2 chevrons are easy to see here...

 

post-3226-1345054947.jpeg

 

Could be possible that one run of the P44s were made this variant of the camo material. I checked all of my USMC camo last night again and all is the Army weave though.

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Here is a close-up of a One-Piece Jungle Suit, made at H.D. Lee Mercantile in 1943; the 2 chevrons are easy to see here...

 

post-3226-1345054947.jpeg

 

I agree, the two chevrons are easy to see and look a lot like the pattern on the shirt I posted photographs of. And, neither of these two examples of HBT camo weave have that clear straight column of weave between the canted columns as seen in the Army HBT weave.

 

It may be that the USMC and Army HBT weave examples pictured in Alec's Grunt Gear were unusually stark in their contrasting patterns and well-worn/aged examples are not as starkly different. Alternatively, as Alec suggests above, perhaps a limited run of P44 uniforms were made with this non-Army HBT weave camo variant.

 

Tim

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Tsellati, on post #5 you can clearly see the Army weave pattern were the Marine Corps buttons are ... I think the wear of your coat is misleading you as it's sometimes difficult to see the special weave but if you compare to a sage green USMC coat, you'll see the difference and there will be no doubt ;)

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Tsellati, on post #5 you can clearly see the Army weave pattern were the Marine Corps buttons are ... I think the wear of your coat is misleading you as it's sometimes difficult to see the special weave but if you compare to a sage green USMC coat, you'll see the difference and there will be no doubt ;)

 

Son-of-a-gun, you're right. Now I see the Army HBT weave once you pointed it out to me. The worn/aged appearance of the rest of the shirt certainly does not make it easy to discern the pattern.

 

On another note, I wish it were my coat, but alas, it is not. It's actually being auctioned on eBay and it appears enough other collectors (more educated than I regarding USMC camo shirts) pegged this one for being original as it's up to $160 with another 2+ days to go. It's just too steep for me now.

 

Tim

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I've posted this before but I'll do it again here because it's a good comparison of the two weaves of HBT cloth. The top one is army weave (taken from a Marine clothing bag) and the bottom is USMC weave (from a P-41 shirt).

 

Steve

post-1105-1345314732.jpg

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  • 5 months later...

I too have never seen camo on USMC weave HBT. The suit posted by Flage has the Army weave as well.

If there ever was any camo made on anything other than Army weave, it has yet to be seen.

 

CB

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  • 1 year later...
asianairborne

I recently acquired a US Army made Camo HBT shirt dated 1944. Were these ever in use by the Marines? I was wondering if I could use it on a marine impression.

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I recently acquired a US Army made Camo HBT shirt dated 1944. Were these ever in use by the Marines? I was wondering if I could use it on a marine impression.

 

Hello,

 

the answer is no ... the Marine Corps had specific camo utilities, P42 seen from 1942 until 1944 and then the P44 for the last campaigns.

 

The Marines had Army camo coveralls during the first campaigns, mainly in the Solomon's Islands, mainly seen in artillery and engineers units.

 

Regards, E

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  • 7 years later...

I know this is an old thread, but I would like to comment anyway because I think I can shed some light. The Marines did in fact have a special weave “Sage Green” HBT that was used from about 1942 through the Korean Conflict. Many members above have posted example pictures showing the Army “chevron to chevron” weave as opposed to the USMC “chevron-hash- chevron” weave. This comparison and logic is absolutely correct. However, “Frogskin” Camo HBT is another animal entirely. 

 

During the early stages of WW2, the US Army developed the HBT Camo pattern and began issuing it to units in the European Theatre of Operations. Unfortunately, the Camo pattern too closely resembled the pattern of some German units and resulted in some dangerous “friendly fire” scenarios. As a consequence, the US Army abandoned the pattern, leaving the ever resourceful US Marines lots of cheap surplus uniforms for use in the Pacific Theatre. At some point, the ingenious reversible green to sand Camo pattern was manufactured, making it perfect for beach landings and further inland operations.

 

True to form, the USMC scooped up all the available uniforms, stamped the EGA on it, and began calling it “frogskin” because of their amphibious mission from sandy beaches to inland jungles. Marine Raiders and ParaMarines are most associated with this uniform, although other units likely used it as well.
 

Helmet covers are another topic, because “Frogskin” was more widespread and even mixed with USMC HBT sage green pattern uniforms in this capacity. As others have pointed out above, all the authentic USMC “Frogskin” Camo is likely to be “Army weave” instead of “Marine weave”.
 

Another interesting side note is that bronze US Marine Corps buttons gave way to black steel buttons later in the war in order to conserve strategic metals (brass). 


Interestingly, these uniform “rivalries” are still evident today and the Marines usually come out on top with the best and most desirable uniforms.

 

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