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Interesting Frog Skin Cover on Ebay


Justin
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Cap Camouflage Pattern I

About the contract number being the same as the Mitchell cover:

 

I dont know how Reynosa and Kline came up with their 1964 date so I dont know if it is set in stone or a guess.

 

But I know from collecting modern gear (which as lots contract info available from the goverment) that contracts can last for many years, and contracts can be modified without changing the contra t number. There are uniforms out there with contracts that were awarded before the camouflage pattern on them was even in testing.

 

So unless thing were very different back then, I have no problems with two camo patterns on the same contract. The manufacturer starts making one, the marines change the specification, the manufacturer changes. It is the same FSN.

 

Assuming that project numbers are the same thing as contract numbers, and that they are sequential, as the dates of 5501 and 5850 suggest, 5432 would have been awarded earlier, which fits with what I suggest above.

 

The only things that doesnt wrap up nicely to me is some of the markings. Why is 5432 not on a white tag like the 59 dated ones, if it began before them and continued after them, there should be an overlap period where they are the same. Also why would the blue anchor have a date, and the 5501 and 5850 have a date, but if 5432 falls in between why does it not?

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HUH?

A VN era contract on a Frog Skin cover would be pretty confusing if you mainly collect WW2 covers and happen to stumble upon one.

 

They don't pop up and I am still after one

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a couple of years ago at Allentown show,(probly close to 15 years) an unknown collector to me showed me about 20 of these, he wanted 30 dollars each, I never saw them before, I was given one to show to other collectors, nobody could say they knew about them, I saw them, did not buy them, the seller said they were made for Vietnam war for countries other than US. this is all I can contribute to this article.

 

semper fi

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juodonnell2012

a couple of years ago at Allentown show,(probly close to 15 years) an unknown collector to me showed me about 20 of these, he wanted 30 dollars each, I never saw them before, I was given one to show to other collectors, nobody could say they knew about them, I saw them, did not buy them, the seller said they were made for Vietnam war for countries other than US. this is all I can contribute to this article.

 

semper fi

The foreign country contract could be correct. I have owned 3 of them. All 3 I bought from junk shops while stationed in South Korea

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I’m with Mike...very nice! And to spur the conversation for those who may not have seen it before, the one I showed (which was a cover alone not on a helmet) came directly from an estate grouping of a marine who had served in Korea in the past, but also was assigned to MAAG in Vietnam during 1964-1965.

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While the theory of this contract being primarily intended for South Vietnamese forces is certainly worth exploring further as helmet covers were being sent to them. By 1962 the brand new issue "Leaf/Mitchell" camouflage covers were already documented in use by ARVN forces in combat operations on an ever growing scale.

 

The photo below is a famous one from Larry Burrows taken in the Mekong Delta in 1962. That would have to make these either the 1959 or 1962 contracts only. Just some more things to look into....

 

post-98601-0-41295600-1566755037_thumb.jpg

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In my thousands of original Vietnam photos I have yet to see a frog skin cover being worn by a Vietnamese.

But never say never

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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That's where I was going as well. While the "Leaf/Mitchell" can be seen used by ARVN forces as early as 1962, I have not seen them with the earlier issue frogskin either so far.

 

It could be said these 1964 contract were made for the Korean forces who wore a similar type looking Frogskin in Vietnam, but by where I got mine it would seem they were issued to U.S. Marines pre 1965.

 

And these "Frogskin" helmet covers were still worn on a limited basis throughout the Vietnam War period by Marines. Below is the latest photo I have seen of a Marine wearing the WWII era "Frogskin" helmet cover in actual field use from another thread here.

 

Operation Frequent Wind, Vietnam 1975

 

post-98601-0-32206300-1566763158.png

 

 

If anyone else has similar or later photos I'd like to see them.

 

 

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While the theory of this contract being primarily intended for South Vietnamese forces is certainly worth exploring further as helmet covers were being sent to them. By 1962 the brand new issue "Leaf/Mitchell" camouflage covers were already documented in use by ARVN forces in combat operations on an ever growing scale.

 

The photo below is a famous one from Larry Burrows taken in the Mekong Delta in 1962. That would have to make these either the 1959 or 1962 contracts only. Just some more things to look into....

 

vietnam 1962 sm.jpg

Bill. There is proof that the "Mitchell" leaf pattern cover was being used during the Lebanon crisis in 1958... I don't have any screen caps handy at the moment but you can see them clear as day. I wonder if these are unmarked covers??

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675039923_United-States-Marines_boat-lowered-from-davit_marines-checked_man-operate-controls-aboard-ship&ved=2ahUKEwjZ6OHrjp_kAhUPTt8KHYGWAncQwqsBMAJ6BAgGEA4&usg=AOvVaw02v1V_dGUhRc0sL8co_1Yq

 

Here's one link I could find real quick

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Im with Mike...very nice! And to spur the conversation for those who may not have seen it before, the one I showed (which was a cover alone not on a helmet) came directly from an estate grouping of a marine who had served in Korea in the past, but also was assigned to MAAG in Vietnam during 1964-1965.

That's interesting. I remember an old thread showing army units wearing frog skin covers. In small numbers, maybe they are this type

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You're right Justin, I completley forgot about those images. Thanks for reminding me! Another mystrey to solve for sure. Here are a couple screen shots which show a close up and the easily determined difference between the two together. These are both listed as July 1958 in Lebanon.

 

post-98601-0-27889900-1566775809_thumb.jpeg

 

post-98601-0-45212100-1566775828.jpeg

 

 

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Cap Camouflage Pattern I

Maybe a navy guy knows what ship CA 18 and CA 23 marked landing craft were assigned to, and maybe there are logs of where that ship went in 1958?

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Cap Camouflage Pattern I

Okay, so no chance it was miscaptioned, here are two other videos of Lebanon 1958 with Mitchell covers

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am on the fence at the moment on selling/trading this cover I had acquired recently. I am in search of other USMC WW2 items so this helmet cover would be more of interest to a later Cold War/Vietnam collector or helmet and helmet covers collector. PM me if you are interested, I have a list of items I am looking for, I have not come up with a Cash price so offers are welcome and i will answer ASAP.

 

Thanks

Robin

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  • 7 months later...

The Defense Clothing and Textile Supply Center” (DCTSC) is the principle wholesale supplier of clothing, textiles and equipage worldwide for U.S. Forces and the Military Assistance Program. It succeeded the Military Clothing and Textile Supply Agency on 1 January 1962 when the DCTCS was activated.”
”In 1962, the Center consolidated the former Army and Marine Corps factories and since has operated the only clothing factory within the Department of Defense.”

This should indicate the helmet cover was made in 1962 or later. And would explain why the stamp differs in style from the tag on the 1959 USMC Mitchell covers.

”Defense Industrial Fund finances the Manufacturing Division of the Defense Clothing and Textile Supply Center located at Philadelphia, Pa., which procures items required on short notice, in small lots, special measurements, or under special circumstances which preclude commercial source procurement. The clothing factory also serves as a pilot production plant to test design specifications and production methods, and provides a part of the production base for industrial mobilization.”

DC & TSC serves several functions. It can be used for limited production for testing and feedback before finalizing specifications for mass production. It can also be used for emergency or special production. Early jungle boots with the white tag you will notice are marked with DC & TSC. Additionally, as mentioned in the previous quotes, it can be used for military assistance program. 
 

“The birth of the DPSC in July, 1965 coincided  with escalation of the action in Vietnam. This organization merged the Defense Medical Supply Center in New York and the Defense Subsistence Supply Center in Chicago and Columbus with the Defense Clothing and Textile Supply Center in Philadelphia.”

The Defense Personnel Supply Center (DPSC) took over the DC & TSC in July 1965. You will notice early ERDL for example is marked DPSC, not DC & TSC.

So perhaps this leaves us with a timeframe of Jan 1962 - July 1965 for the helmet covers. 1964 was mentioned as a possible date earlier. I’m a bit skeptical how that was determined, but it would be consistent. 

The multiple functions of DC & TSC and lack of a solid date of manufacture make it hard to determine exactly why they were made. It leaves several possibilities. 

If the covers are from 1962 for example, a limited run of frogskin covers might make more sense. That would be before Mitchell covers really entered mass production for use across all the services. If they were made in 1964 or 65, it would make less sense. They could have been made for an obscure reason and then just dumped on the USMC or a foreign ally. It might be hard to know the real purpose. It just seems odd to restart production of something that was already replaced.

But one poster said they found several in South Korea. Another was also mentioned to be found overseas. I think for such a rare cover that is interesting and perhaps them being used for military assistance to an allied nation should be looked at more. 

The US was pressuring South Korea to assist in Vietnam around this time. Korea was also using very similar camo based on the same pattern. Perhaps a limited production of these was made as part of a aid package in preparation for South Korean units deploying to Vietnam. 

This style of camo on a helmet cover is easy to see on Korean troops in Vietnam, mostly earlier in the war. Some look korean made, some look quite crudely made, and some I don’t know. Maybe someone with more expertise can take a look and say if it’s possible they are US covers. But units seem to have mixed covers, so they clearly didn’t have enough of one kind of cover to give everyone. In that case, aid from the US would make sense. 

I don’t know any of the answers. But maybe this helps?

 

 

 

0B9BD95B-0140-4932-BF24-711D971DAD0C.jpeg

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