Jump to content

REMEMBER RIO HATO Panama 1989


Recommended Posts

flashesandovals
thanks for all these stunning pictures Pascal.... in the last picture you can see a M16A1

Correct - all pictures were taken in October 1983 in Grenada (not in Panama).

The point is that in operations certain uniform standards may be neglected in certain situations.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Buffalo Grunt

Big Red,

 

Hello and many thanks for your comments and I agree that this will at least get everyone thinking. You all do a GREAT job in representing the unit! I havent been on the forum in a few days and I'll have to go through all the new threads .. Great to see this being so active.

 

My Best,

Don

 

 

Dear Buffalo Grunt

 

First of all i would like to thank you for your Service

Secondly i would like to thank you for your comments that i always take as positive to improve the look that we have.. I know about the sleeves and I will make William do at least 25 for that...LOL...

Pascal.. I also would like to thank you for your comments and for the "horse" you lend us...the impression was also even better thanks to that and to you..

The goal of REMEMBER is always to be historically accurate all the time but also there are two other things:

1. Remembering the Veterans and what they did..

2. Starting interesting discussion about a subject that will improve the knowledge of everyone here on this forum.

 

Big Greg

Link to post
Share on other sites
Buffalo Grunt

Pascal,

 

Great stuff and at the least everyone will be better educated on the subject especially the guys doing the living history. You brought some good points up, but I'm still sticking with my initial comment and this is the last thing that I will say on the matter (only because I'm sure that we can go back and forth for a while on this.)

 

Many thanks for the great "Grenada" reference photographs, but this has little to do with the uniform of the Light Infantry, Airborne, and Ranger units of the late 1980's, early 90's (Operation Just Cause Era) Reasons are as follows:

 

1. The Battle Dress Uniform was introduced in the early 1980s and Grenada was the first combat situation that they were worn by U.S. Soldiers. At that time there were no regulation pertaining to the rolling up of sleeves. Shortly after 1983 the US Army Regulations (AR 670-1) were modified to reflect the following:

 

"When soldiers wear the sleeves of the coat rolled up, the camouflage pattern will remain exposed. Personnel will roll the sleeves neatly above the elbow, no more than 3 inches above the elbow."

Please note that in my 9 years of serving with the United States Army we only were allowed to wear sleeves rolled up (camouflage pattern on outside) in controlled situations in garrison or during schools, instructional periods, etc. We never were allowed to roll them up in the field (i.e. tactical situations.)

 

2. During the Grenada Invasion many soldiers experienced Heat Casualties due to the fact that they were wearing these heavy Cotton and Nylon uniforms and complaints led to the modification of the BDU and in the late 1980s the Hot Weather (ripstop) BDUs were introduced and what the troops wore during Operation Just Cause. At this time all other uniforms were phased out of the Army (Jungle Fatigues, Army Utility uniform (aka pickle suit) etc.)

 

As many of your Grenada photographs showed, soldiers did what they could in the extreme heat of Grenada and many of your photographs show soldiers wearing a mixture of EDRL, BDU, and Jungle Fatigues (sometimes one soldier wearing a mixture of uniforms.) This was a learning period for the BDU and shouldn’t be used to reference the Operations in Panama.

 

Again, these are just my personal experiences from serving for 9 years and you have valid points. I wouldn’t see a problem if you had one or two guys with their sleeves rolled once, as sometimes this was needed as the sleeves could have been too long, but rolled up to the elbow or past the elbow with back side out isn’t a good representation in my opinion. Many reading this form can take what they want from this thread and I hope that it helps the reenactment group .. I love it because it's bringing my era into focus and these Operation Just Cause veterans don't get the credit that they deserve.

 

My Best to All ..

 

 

Next
Link to post
Share on other sites
flashesandovals
Pascal,

 

Great stuff and at the least everyone will be better educated on the subject especially the guys doing the living history. You brought some good points up, but I'm still sticking with my initial comment and this is the last thing that I will say on the matter (only because I'm sure that we can go back and forth for a while on this.)

 

Many thanks for the great "Grenada" reference photographs, but this has little to do with the uniform of the Light Infantry, Airborne, and Ranger units of the late 1980's, early 90's (Operation Just Cause Era) Reasons are as follows:

 

1. The Battle Dress Uniform was introduced in the early 1980s and Grenada was the first combat situation that they were worn by U.S. Soldiers. At that time there were no regulation pertaining to the rolling up of sleeves. Shortly after 1983 the US Army Regulations (AR 670-1) were modified to reflect the following:

 

"When soldiers wear the sleeves of the coat rolled up, the camouflage pattern will remain exposed. Personnel will roll the sleeves neatly above the elbow, no more than 3 inches above the elbow."

Please note that in my 9 years of serving with the United States Army we only were allowed to wear sleeves rolled up (camouflage pattern on outside) in controlled situations in garrison or during schools, instructional periods, etc. We never were allowed to roll them up in the field (i.e. tactical situations.)

 

2. During the Grenada Invasion many soldiers experienced Heat Casualties due to the fact that they were wearing these heavy Cotton and Nylon uniforms and complaints led to the modification of the BDU and in the late 1980s the Hot Weather (ripstop) BDUs were introduced and what the troops wore during Operation Just Cause. At this time all other uniforms were phased out of the Army (Jungle Fatigues, Army Utility uniform (aka pickle suit) etc.)

 

As many of your Grenada photographs showed, soldiers did what they could in the extreme heat of Grenada and many of your photographs show soldiers wearing a mixture of EDRL, BDU, and Jungle Fatigues (sometimes one soldier wearing a mixture of uniforms.) This was a learning period for the BDU and shouldn’t be used to reference the Operations in Panama.

 

Again, these are just my personal experiences from serving for 9 years and you have valid points. I wouldn’t see a problem if you had one or two guys with their sleeves rolled once, as sometimes this was needed as the sleeves could have been too long, but rolled up to the elbow or past the elbow with back side out isn’t a good representation in my opinion. Many reading this form can take what they want from this thread and I hope that it helps the reenactment group .. I love it because it's bringing my era into focus and these Operation Just Cause veterans don't get the credit that they deserve.

 

My Best to All ..

Thanks Don!

 

Check this out...

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=149wakw&s=7

As the caption says, this in Panama 1989.

Link to post
Share on other sites
flashesandovals
Three pictures taken during Operation Just Cause in Panama 1989:

B34599A7-72DE-4B0B-89B9-97ACC2AA4ED0-106-00000006589DB55D.jpg

 

E6E962E7-E13F-4AA2-8FCC-E0A9EDA814E0-106-00000005FB1F161E.jpg

 

D7DD2507-2D68-46CB-8485-6396EF783DD3-106-00000005B6E1CC2C-1.jpg

 

So, late 80's after the BDU's had been in use 7 years...

 

 

Oh yes, these guys are from 1st Ranger Battalion in...Panama

 

A8238258-87FD-43E5-A53E-69FFBC9F2194-106-0000000F285A94F1.jpg

 

So you see, any unit, any era, any conflict...

Link to post
Share on other sites

The last Picture is RANGER 3rd Battalion for Operation Just Cause and i even think they dropped at RIO HATO :-)

Thanks for all these super infos

Link to post
Share on other sites
flashesandovals
The last Picture is RANGER 3rd Battalion for Operation Just Cause and i even think they dropped at RIO HATO :-)

Thanks for all these super infos

it is hard to tell from the picture, but the source said it was 1st Bn...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Something else you may want to check on is the use of the Ragtops on the Ballistic Helmet during the jump.

 

The ASOP (Airborne Standard Operating Procedures) at the time specifically prohibited wear of ragtops on the ballistic helmet during an airborne operation. If you've ever been inside a C-130 or C-141 in a T-10 with the doors open you'd know why LOL! Simply a matter of putting the raptop on, once on the DZ. The ragtop I had in '89 was a larger sized helmet cover with strips of worn-out BDUs sewn to it, which was probably the same as Ranger Regt., so it was pretty easy to get it on your helmet.

 

Also, sleeves were worn down for the jump, as they were worn for any jump. The discipline level that exists within the 75th Ranger Regt makes that an almost absolute. Understand that you have a Ranger who has helped you with your display, but just take a look at those things again

 

ALL THE WAY!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Couple more comments:

 

- Angle head flashlight w/out filter - 75th probably used the Mini Maglights anyways

- Camo looks good, but 75th always set the standard for camo on the hands, neck, back of neck, etc.

- Nomex gloves were in use as well

- Cat Eyes & nametapes on the rucksack flaps?

- NO First Aid Pouch on suspenders - Strobe pouch yes (nonfiring shoulder)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Lewis 505. Thank you for your comments really appreciate.

To reply your comments... :thumbsup:

1. for the sleeves i think that the discussion was over about that.. :-)

2. For the Rag top i can tell you that they were already wearing it in the plane to get to RIO HATO due to the fact that their rag top was fixed inside the helmet with 550 paracord. they could not have the time to do it on landing.

 

3. for the Angle flashlight i can tell you that almost all the Ranger at RIO HATO used them attached to the ammo pouch (the only filter was red) as Ted told us they did (i'm sure some of them used also mini mag lights i'll ask Ted about that)

4. camo there was a standard i'll post a pic

5. I'm sure that some Ranger wore nomex gloves but Ted told us that most of the guys in is squad (3rd Sq 1PLt Alpha Co.) did not wore any gloves...apart from maybe black leather of creme rappelling ones

6. Yes cats eyes and name tapes on ruck that was a Standard issue for the Operation at RIO HATO

7. you are right for the 1st aid pouch..( Ramon will do some push ups for that.. :-) )

 

Have a nice day :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

here you will see the pic of the CAMO... sorry only this one...

post-64352-1346068060.jpg

 

 

and the way to attache the Rag top and the comments of Ted

post-64352-1346067905.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
Dear Lewis 505. Thank you for your comments really appreciate.

To reply your comments... :thumbsup:

1. for the sleeves i think that the discussion was over about that.. :-)

2. For the Rag top i can tell you that they were already wearing it in the plane to get to RIO HATO due to the fact that their rag top was fixed inside the helmet with 550 paracord. they could not have the time to do it on landing.

 

3. for the Angle flashlight i can tell you that almost all the Ranger at RIO HATO used them attached to the ammo pouch (the only filter was red) as Ted told us they did (i'm sure some of them used also mini mag lights i'll ask Ted about that)

4. camo there was a standard i'll post a pic

5. I'm sure that some Ranger wore nomex gloves but Ted told us that most of the guys in is squad (3rd Sq 1PLt Alpha Co.) did not wore any gloves...apart from maybe black leather of creme rappelling ones

6. Yes cats eyes and name tapes on ruck that was a Standard issue for the Operation at RIO HATO

7. you are right for the 1st aid pouch..( Ramon will do some push ups for that.. :-) )

 

Have a nice day :-)

 

Somehow I missed an entire page of this thread & in it most of my dumb observations were answered - well done lads!

 

The ragtop comment was based on the SOP I followed while assigned as a 11C with B Co 3/505 PIR, 82d ABN DIV, from Oct 1987 to Jun 1991. My Squad Leader had come from 7th ID and had us construct ragtops for our helmets using the method earlier stated. 82d ABN SOPs prevented us from jumping with them on, but 75th always did things their own way & makes sense how they had them secured to their helmets.

 

Another quick observation I noted was how the 2QT canteens and E-Tools were attached to the Large ALICE packs. In one photo a Ranger reenactor has the E-tool hung on the left side of the ruck (as worn), and in another photo of a RTO the 2 QT Canteen is on the left side - take a look at what Ranger Kennedy says if 75th had an SOP for the ALICE Pack - I know we did in the 82nd, but again, different units with different missions

 

All in all an excellent job lads! AIRBORNE!

 

Chris Lewis

 

B Co 3/505 PIR 82d ABN DIV Oct 87 - Jun 91

B Co 2/505 PIR 82d ABN DIV Feb 93 - Jan 96

HHC 2/505 PIR 82d ABN DIV Apr 02 - Jul 04

HHC 1/505 PIR 82d ABN DIV Jul 04 - Oct 05

Link to post
Share on other sites

WELL... what can i say.. THANK YOU Chris...

 

Seeing all this interest gives us a boost to do even better thank you for the positive comments..

 

Have a great day

Link to post
Share on other sites

The 550 gord comment reminded me of another detail which you may already include. Gutted 550 cord is used to secure canteen covers and such to the pistol belt by passing the cord through the hole at the top of the metal slider and around the bottom of the prong on the side of the prong "away" from the wearer after the canteen cover has been attached and secured to the pistol belt. This one action prevented two things; 1) the canteen cover stayed in place and 2} no other jumper got hit by your gear as it went ballistic.

I also remember seeing another non~standard but widely accepted variation and that was to use lengths of 550 cord to attach the butt pack lower on the pistol belt so that it rode comfortably below the ALCE pack frame instead of mashed against the wearers back.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The 550 gord comment reminded me of another detail which you may already include. Gutted 550 cord is used to secure canteen covers and such to the pistol belt by passing the cord through the hole at the top of the metal slider and around the bottom of the prong on the side of the prong "away" from the wearer after the canteen cover has been attached and secured to the pistol belt. This one action prevented two things; 1) the canteen cover stayed in place and 2} no other jumper got hit by your gear as it went ballistic.

I also remember seeing another non~standard but widely accepted variation and that was to use lengths of 550 cord to attach the butt pack lower on the pistol belt so that it rode comfortably below the ALCE pack frame instead of mashed against the wearers back.

Got a buddy who was in 3/75 during Panama-timeframe & he said the use of 550-cord thru the ALICE clips was a big NO-GO in his Platoon - anyone else have intel on this?

Link to post
Share on other sites
there you go... you don't see in the pictures.. this is the details...

 

post-64352-1346324036.jpg

 

post-64352-1346324050.jpg

Looks good - did you also "dummy cord" the canteens? Or was that not part of their TACSOP

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep it was part of it.. I have all the details if you want...but those are only good for A Co. i cannot tell you for sure for the other Companies of 2nd Batt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Greg my man, I said it before and I'll say it agin....great stuff bro! :thumbsup: I am wondering though, what was the purpose of the ragtop on the PASGT helmets?

Link to post
Share on other sites

It was for recognize each other. remember the PDF had the same equipment and Kpot..so an easy way to be different was improvisation so...RAGTOP... :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I was there. I wasn't a visitor, I was stationed there. If you were out in the middle of the day, you might dare a roll or maybe two on the sleeves. Been there and done that myself. Until the SMAJ or company commander showed up, and then the sleeves would be right back down.

 

I've been in the Army for nearly 28 years. I've seen everything from the Elvis collar to the OCP. Sleeves down was and is the rule in combat operations. You'll get a few undisciplined troopers, that's normal. But as soon as they were around someone over the rank of SSG, the sleeves were DOWN.

 

[break]

 

Nice impression, guys. I have some pics of Rio Hato I took after the invasion, I'll try to get them up.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.