Rank patch on overseas cap.

[Jeeper704]

Major General Gillem
IInd Armored Corps.

Interesting rank badge on his overseas cap.

Erwin

[Glenn_Janssens]

Interesting rank badge on his overseas cap.

 

Erwin

 

Nice one.

These Guys can wear wathever they want.

[doyler]

Was a fairly common practice to wear a wool oval on the overseas cap pre and early war that was in the branch color of the wearer.I have a example of a summer weight cap with light blue wool oval with officers rank which designates infantry.

[patches]

Found another General.

 

Lieutenant-General Daniel Van Voorhis , circa 1940-42 as CO of V Corps.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Van_Vo...ost_World_War_I

 

 

As both these men are General Officers I wonder what the colors of the Discs are.

[patches]

Here is another Photo this one of a LT COL ? he's on the right, the unit is the 7th Cavarlry Brigade ( Mechanized) at Fort Knox, me thinks for some reason that this round disc on the officers Garrison cap was a Tank or Mech fashion only :think: Gillem was a Tanker, Voorhis was a Tanker, and we see this other officer, I'm sure I,ve others with this disc on Garrison cap that were related to the 1930s Tank and Mechanized forces.

[Justin B.]

Here is another Photo this one of a LT COL ? he's on the right, the unit is the 7th Cavarlry Brigade ( Mechanized) at Fort Knox, me thinks for some reason that this round disc on the officers Garrison cap was a Tank or Mech fashion only :think: Gillem was a Tanker, Voorhis was a Tanker, and we see this other officer, I'm sure I,ve others with this disc on Garrison cap that were related to the 1930s Tank and Mechanized forces.

 

I think that's right; between WW1 and WW2 he overseas cap was kind of "elite" headgear the way the beret would later be, first for air corps and then for armored and mechanized. Ft. Knox seemed to be the center of the colored disc thing. Emerson's Encyclopedia of US Army Insignia and Uniforms:

 

Photographs of these early mechanized cavalry units show that khaki field caps were worn with summer khaki uniforms, while non-regulation olive drab wool caps with the high crown and branch trim were also worn. Officers wore the gold and black braid, which corresponded to the colored trim used on the campaign cap. Branch colored cloth disks went behind officers' metal rank insignia -- again, despite army regulations. Apparently the new forces at Fort Knox wrote their own rules.

 

Justin B.

[doyler]

I think that's right; between WW1 and WW2 he overseas cap was kind of "elite" headgear the way the beret would later be, first for air corps and then for armored and mechanized. Ft. Knox seemed to be the center of the colored disc thing. Emerson's Encyclopedia of US Army Insignia and Uniforms:

 

Photographs of these early mechanized cavalry units show that khaki field caps were worn with summer khaki uniforms, while non-regulation olive drab wool caps with the high crown and branch trim were also worn. Officers wore the gold and black braid, which corresponded to the colored trim used on the campaign cap. Branch colored cloth disks went behind officers' metal rank insignia -- again, despite army regulations. Apparently the new forces at Fort Knox wrote their own rules.

 

Justin B.

 

 

Emmerson also shows a photo of several officers weraing the cap in khaki with the disc's.He mentions other colors as well.Buff for QM and a white with maroon for medical.

[doyler]

[doyler]

[Jeeper704]

Great information, thank you all!

So then the round patch with Captain bars on it can be one of those (just below the little cardboard box of buttons)?

From a Veterinarian in the 3rd AD.

Erwin

[doyler]

Great information, thank you all!

 

So then the round patch with Captain bars on it can be one of those (just below the little cardboard box of buttons)?

From a Veterinarian in the 3rd AD.

 

Erwin

 

I would say it was for his cap :thumbsup:

[J_Andrews]

Info is posts #6 and #8 is consistent with what a veteran of the 1st Armored Div once told me.

 

According to him (enlisted Summer 1940, after graduating fr HS, then reporting in to Ft Knox), the "field cap" or "overseas cap" replaced the field hat/campaign hat in the mechanized units a few months before he got there. As a New Guy, he had to wear and care for the Smokey hat (with no branch-colored cord, as he was not yet "branched"), UNTIL he was done with recruit training and reported into a unit. He was in both the Inf and the Cav Recon before Pearl Harbor, and served with the 1 AD through Sicily, where he was WIA and medevacked to the ZI. He also stated that Regular Army guys not in the Div at Knox also eschewed the campaign hat and began wearing the service dress cap in garrison and off-post, with khakis and ODs. That meant the hat signified an activated NG or ORC (all before PH).

[patches]

Info is posts #6 and #8 is consistent with what a veteran of the 1st Armored Div once told me.

 

According to him (enlisted Summer 1940, after graduating fr HS, then reporting in to Ft Knox), the "field cap" or "overseas cap" replaced the field hat/campaign hat in the mechanized units a few months before he got there. As a New Guy, he had to wear and care for the Smokey hat (with no branch-colored cord, as he was not yet "branched"), UNTIL he was done with recruit training and reported into a unit. He was in both the Inf and the Cav Recon before Pearl Harbor, and served with the 1 AD through Sicily, where he was WIA and medevacked to the ZI. He also stated that Regular Army guys not in the Div at Knox also eschewed the campaign hat and began wearing the service dress cap in garrison and off-post, with khakis and ODs. That meant the hat signified an activated NG or ORC (all before PH).

 

Sure on this J, for one thing the 1st Armored Division was NOT in the Sicilian Campaign, it was rebuilding back in Africa, maybe the old gent meant Italy.

[Justin B.]

As both these men are General Officers I wonder what the colors of the Discs are.

 

Sorry I forgot this in my earlier reply. I don't know for sure, but my best guess is very dark blue or black, the same as the background of the dress shoulder straps.

 

Justin B.

[J_Andrews]

Patches: CORRECT. My error. After I posted, I went to check, as "Sicily" seemed wrong.

 

Yes, it would have been Italy where he was WIA.

 

 

BTW the vet was an interesting guy. He was in the 81st Rcn Sqn and made MSgt/1st Sgt before being wounded. Once healed, he went to Camp Chaffee Ark and the then-new 16th Armored Div, as a Bn Sgt Major. Doing well in maneuvers, a visiting general offered him a direct commission, but he countered with a request for an alternate reward: SEND ME BACK TO THE 1st.

That brought orders to Italy, but not specifically to the Div, so he was an instructor in a provisional armored crew replacement center until he weaseled his way north and rejoined the Div, on the approaches to Milan. He was on occupation duty in Austria and thought that we would stay in the RA (he had been RA since enlisting). BUT he was offered only SSG, so he told them to stuff it and was home for Christmas 45. Post-war he was briefly in one of the ORC Armd Divs and the ILARNG (as 1Sgt), but quit in disgust with the route-step routine.

 

When I knew him, he was a post office supervisor -- and a part-time beer vendor at Comiskey Park.

 

I still have his Sykes-Fairbairn knife, complete with blood-pitting (German) from Tunisia.

[GIl Sanow]

Sorry I forgot this in my earlier reply. I don't know for sure, but my best guess is very dark blue or black, the same as the background of the dress shoulder straps.

 

Justin B.

 

GO's would have worn black -- their "branch color"

 

G

[Justin B.]

GO's would have worn black -- their "branch color"

 

Yeah, that's what I meant though the regs at that time called it "blue-black," with "black" for chaplains.

 

Justin B.

[GIl Sanow]

Interesting -- I have never seen any such reference to blue-black. What's your source?

 

G

[patches]

Patches: CORRECT. My error. After I posted, I went to check, as "Sicily" seemed wrong.

 

Yes, it would have been Italy where he was WIA.

BTW the vet was an interesting guy. He was in the 81st Rcn Sqn and made MSgt/1st Sgt before being wounded. Once healed, he went to Camp Chaffee Ark and the then-new 16th Armored Div, as a Bn Sgt Major. Doing well in maneuvers, a visiting general offered him a direct commission, but he countered with a request for an alternate reward: SEND ME BACK TO THE 1st.

That brought orders to Italy, but not specifically to the Div, so he was an instructor in a provisional armored crew replacement center until he weaseled his way north and rejoined the Div, on the approaches to Milan. He was on occupation duty in Austria and thought that we would stay in the RA (he had been RA since enlisting). BUT he was offered only SSG, so he told them to stuff it and was home for Christmas 45. Post-war he was briefly in one of the ORC Armd Divs and the ILARNG (as 1Sgt), but quit in disgust with the route-step routine.

 

When I knew him, he was a post office supervisor -- and a part-time beer vendor at Comiskey Park.

 

I still have his Sykes-Fairbairn knife, complete with blood-pitting (German) from Tunisia.

 

He was an Original Old Ironsides :w00t:

[Justin B.]

Interesting -- I have never seen any such reference to blue-black. What's your source?

 

AR 600-38, Dress and Uniforms for Officers and Warrant Officers, August 17, 1938:

 

39. Straps, Shoulder [...]

c. Insignia of grade

(1) General officers of the line. -- Lieutenant general, three silver stars; major general two silver stars; brigadier general, 1 silver star; stars to be 5/8 inch in diameter and embroidered on a blue-black velvet background.

 

Actually, now I check, the current regulations say the same:

 

28–8. Other grade insignia [...]

b. Shoulder straps (officer personnel only). [...]

(2) Design. For general officers, the background is blue-black velvet. For all other officers, the background is a rayon-grosgrain ribbon of the first-named color of the officer’s basic branch.

 

Justin B.

[patches]

AR 600-38, Dress and Uniforms for Officers and Warrant Officers, August 17, 1938:

 

39. Straps, Shoulder [...]

c. Insignia of grade

(1) General officers of the line. -- Lieutenant general, three silver stars; major general two silver stars; brigadier general, 1 silver star; stars to be 5/8 inch in diameter and embroidered on a blue-black velvet background.

 

Actually, now I check, the current regulations say the same:

 

28–8. Other grade insignia [...]

b. Shoulder straps (officer personnel only). [...]

(2) Design. For general officers, the background is blue-black velvet. For all other officers, the background is a rayon-grosgrain ribbon of the first-named color of the officer’s basic branch.

 

Justin B.

 

 

Blue Black ! that could be called Navy Blue, the Army would never want to classifiy a color they would use as Navy Blue

[Longhorn1939]

Great information, thank you all!

[SpookyTeddyBear]

Here is another Photo this one of a LT COL ? he's on the right, the unit is the 7th Cavarlry Brigade ( Mechanized) at Fort Knox, me thinks for some reason that this round disc on the officers Garrison cap was a Tank or Mech fashion only :think: Gillem was a Tanker, Voorhis was a Tanker, and we see this other officer, I'm sure I,ve others with this disc on Garrison cap that were related to the 1930s Tank and Mechanized forces.

 

The officer on the right in that of future general Willis Crittenberger, then LTC. Sorry, thought I might add this info if not already known.