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Memphis Belle: History May Have To Be Rewritten


Shanghai Jack
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Johnny Signor

Hey, thanks for sharing those , this one has the "correct" lettering for her name , the shots look like somewhere "back then" , cool !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I caught Tallichet's B-17 right after it got back from England, and still had the paint job from the movie on it:

Belle.jpg

As a life member of the 91st BG association, I can confirm that all the other B-17 crews got tired of being known as having been in, "The Memphis Belle group" all these years...

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Here is a fairly current pic of the Belle, last August in Chesapeake, VA.

We were taking a short break from rides to let a shower pass.

 

The extent to which this airplane was changed to look like an F model amazes me.

The waist gun positions, lack of astro dome, chin turret and many more items that were

changed for the film is pretty cool.

From a pilots viewpoint, it is of course a G model to fly, from a systems perspective.

She actually flies a bit nicer then the Liberty Belle, which I flew for 3 1/2 years.

Although on my worst day, how bad can it be flying any B-17.

 

My understanding is that both this 17 and Sally B were used as Memphis Belle in the filming of the movie.

Not sure which one appeared more, but I always did enjoy the movie.

 

As for history, I have heard that Hells Angels was the first airplane to complete 25 missions in the 8th AF,

but the Memphis Belle, was the first crew to complete 25 missions. My two cents.

I am sure they were all glad to just get home...

 

Best, John

post-12439-0-51649500-1356629832.jpg

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Can you imagine how many statisticians it would have taken to keep track of every mission that all of the thousands of bombers flew, in all the different theaters? And then try to figure out if the same crews flew on every mission that each the plane did, or not? Probably a Battalion of men to keep track of that data. But for what purpose? Would it have shortened the War? Would it have prolonged the War? Would it have saved American lives? Keeping a score like that is ridculous.

 

The MEMPHIS BELLE was symbolic of every crew that flew during WWII. Just think of all of those crews that survived, and pray for those that did not survive. It did not make one bit of difference if you flew 1 mission or 100 missions. ALL GAVE SOME ~~~~~~~ AND SOME GAVE ALL! May all of our WWII heroes REST IN PEACE! Danny

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Johan Willaert

One of the reasons they opted for the Memphis Belle title was that co-producer Catherine Wyler was the daughter of William Wyler who directed the original WW2 Memphis Belle version... At least that was being said at the time of the filming...

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Too many people think a crew got their bomber and they all flew their 25 missions together. This simply was not the case. It may have happened but not often. If a member was sick or wounded or was needed to fill a spot on another bomber some crew members had more missions done than others. The men who came back on the Memphis Belle all had their 25 in but one man had only flown on the Belle once. To say the "crew" were the first to get their 25 missions is just not true. It is accepted as history now and all of those men were brave and did their duty. No use in trying to change the story now.

I also think that the "Memphis Belle" that is flying at air shows is confusing to people who do not know their history. Just one more thing to explain to people who think the movie is history. Way too many people get their history from Hollywood. I have talked to people who say they have seen the Belle. I have to tell them the real Belle is in Dayton. The vast number of Americans do not take the time to read and research as we forum members do.

Steve

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  • 2 years later...

As far as I am concerned, the Memphis Belle and it's crew completed their 25 missions and went on to promote the War Bond Drive at home. They got the accolades for their accomplishments and it is well deserved. The others were not recognized, yet did they just quit and go home because they were not recognized...no. They are men who served their country proudly and many died as a result...that is their legacy.

The theorists who are trying to re-write history should focus on memorializing the dead, not changing history.

My question to those bent on making this an issue is simply this. Were you there??? Were you in the skies over Europe, the Pacific or any other theatre where men served on board Army Air Force bombers??? I would suspect you were not. So, what is the motivation that drives these guys to the want of "re-writing history". Personal gain?? Fifteen minutes of fame?? I do not understand the motivation...it is over 70 years ago...let it go already!!!!!

Our focus should be to honor the men who served, let them rest in peace. Stirring up controversy such as this is degrading to the soldiers who died overseas and to those who came home after the war.

I am not a theorist nor am I trying to rewrite history. I am trying to give the crew of the B-24 Liberator Hot Stuff long overdue recognition for being the first heavy bomber in the 8th Air force to complete 25 missions and to honor those who lost their lives when Hot Stuff crashed into a mountain in Iceland on May 3, 1943.

 

I have the greatest admiration for the crews of every bomber that flew in combat in World War II and that includes the crew of the B-17 Memphis Belle and Hell’s Angeles. The Belle did an outstanding job touring country raising morale on the home and helping sell war bonds. The perception, however, is that the “Belle” was the first to complete 25 missions. The reality is there were many B-24s besides Hot Stuff that completed 25 missions before the Memphis Belle or Hell’s Angels. Capt. Robert Morgan, pilot of the Memphis Belle agreed that the Memphis Belle was not the first to complete 25 missions. Why is important that Hot Stuff was first? There are movies and books written about the Memphis Belle and their families continue to reap the rewards from movies and books while the crew of Hot Stuff was forgotten. They and their families receive nothing, not even a good explanation of what happened.

The passengers including Lt. Gen. Frank M. Andrews, Commander to the European Theater Of Operations, killed onboard Hot Stuff were also forgotten. Andrews AFB now Joint Base Andrews was named after him after the war but few people remember him and those that do know very little and have no idea why the base was named after him. Andrews was one of America’s great military leaders. He is considered one to the fathers of the modern US Air Force. He was chosen ahead of many who outranked him to organize and command the first centralize GHQ (General Headquarters) Air Force. Today’s Air Force is a testament to his organization and management skills.

 

 

Andrews was an advocate for the B-17 when it was very unpopular with the Secretary of War and the Chiefs of Staff of the Army and Navy. He was offered the job that was given to Gen. Hap Arnold if he would stop advocating for the B-17. He refused and, because of his refusal, was reduced in rank from a major General to a Colonel. Fortunately, Gen. Marshall, who recognized Andrews’ leadership skills, was offered the job as Army Chief of Staff. He refused to take the assignment unless he could have Andrews on his Staff.

Andrews was the only commander of three theaters of Operations in World War II including Chief of the Caribbean Air Force, Commander of U.S. Army Forces in the Middle East and Commander of the European Theater of Operations (he replaced Gen. Eisenhower). He was to be informed on the day he died that he had been selected to “command the entire Allied forces for the eventual invasion of Europe across the English Channel.” The job was assigned the Eisenhower seven months later. Many speculate had he not been killed, Andrews might have been the 34th president of the United States instead of Eisenhower.

It was known that Andrews was in line for promotion to four star general when he died. I began a letter writing campaign to have him promoted posthumously in time for his family to receive his four stars at the dedication of the memorial monument in Iceland on May 3, 2018, the 75th anniversary of the accident.

 

I have spent six years researching the Hot Stuff story. My late close friend Robert “Jake” Jacobson was the bombardier on Hot Stuff. He, the copilot and three crew members were bumped from the flight back to the U.S. by Andrews, members of his staff and three chaplains. I’ve located many family members of the crew and passengers who knew little or nothing about what happened and were most appreciative when I contacted them. They are 100% behind the effort the get long overdue recognition for Hot Stuff and to revive Gen. Andrews’ legacy.

 

I have been to Iceland and recovered pieces of Hot Stuff wreckage and offered pieces to the major museums throughout the U.S. I’ve given presentations to the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum, Washington, D.C., the National Museum of the USAF, Dayton, OH, Pima Air & Space Museum, Tucson, AZ, Strategic Air & Space Museum, Omaha, NE, the Veterans Museum and Memorial Center, San Diego, CA, Seattle Museum of Flight, Seattle, WA, Aviation Museum of New Hampshire, Manchester, NH and several others.

I was invited to speak to the History Departments at the United States Military Academy at West Point, NY and the USAF Academy in Colorado Springs. CO. I was in invited back to the Air Force Academy where I spoke to a class of cadets.

 

I began a fund raiser in 2012 for a memorial monument honoring the Hot Stuff crew and those killed in the accident. More than $47,000 has been raised and a stainless steel sculpture of Hot Stuff with an 8ft. wing span will be the centerpiece of the monument. It is near completion. Donations received go directly into the fund. It is managed by the 93rd Bombardment Group Association. The monument will be located in Iceland alongside a highway with the mountain where the crash occurred in the background. The land was donated by the village of Grindavik.

I had a plaque made that was unveiled at the site of the future monument on the 70th Anniversary of the accident in 2013. The president of Iceland Olafur Grimmson and United States Ambassador to Iceland Luis Arreaga spoke during a memorial ceremony honoring the crew of Hot Stuff and those killed. Ambassador Arreaga also read a letter from the USAF Chief of Staff Mark Welch confirming Hot Stuff was the first to complete 25 missions.

I spent five years in the USAF and thirty years with a large corporation. I retired 24 years ago and spent many of those years organizing air shows for the Commemorative Air Force in San Marcos, TX. The air shows featured the great airplanes of World War II. We had hundreds of honored guests over the years, many of whom I befriended. They include all of the living AVG Flying Tigers, All of the living Doolittle Tokyo Raider, several Tuskegee Airmen, WASPs, Fighter Ace, Bomber Crews, Ground Crews and Rosie the Riveters. Those who are still alive are also 100% behind this project including Lt. Col. Richard E. Cole (100 years old), who was Jimmy Doolittle’s copilot on the Tokyo Raid.

 

I also organize a monthly luncheon for those who helped me during the air shows many of whom are WW II Veterans and they too are 100% behind this project.

If anyone still has doubts about whether or not errors should be corrected regarding events that occurred during World War II, I urge you to watch a 10 minute interview of 92 year old, Bill Gros and an 18 minute video The Story of Triumph and Tragedy on the Hot Stuff/Gen Andrews website: www.b24hotstuff.wikispaces.com

 

Bill Gros was the radio operator on the B-24 Eager Beaver. His best friend was the radio operator who was killed onboard Hot Stuff. His interview is an excellent example why the truth about what happened during the War should be told and documented even though it happened so long ago.

 

World War II was the most catastrophic event in human history and we should never “let it go already!!!” It should be studied as long as humans are present on this earth. We should not be satisfied with opinions or perceptions only facts and reality.

 

I have more than enough proof that the crew of Hot Stuff was the first heavy bomber in the 8th Air Force to complete 25 and 30 missions and that Lt. Gen. Frank M. Andrews deserves the same status as the great generals of World War II.

I have done and continue working on this project this at my own expense. I’m too old to be looking for fifteen minutes of fame. I seek no personal gain or recognition. I honor all veterans especially veterans of World War II.

 

A book about Hot Stuff is due for publication in November 2015. All of the portion of the proceeds from the book I receive will go into the Memorial Monument Fund.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this response.

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Were not some of "Hot Stuff's " missions complete while operating in North Africa and the MTO? I'd imagine the notion of 25 missions completed out of England over the ETO might have been a factor in choosing the Belle. Obviously, "Hell's Angels" was not the name they wanted to send home to all the mom's back home :)

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I appreciate the efforts to correct the historical narrative, but the fact remains that the USAAF could not celebrate a bomber for completing 25 missions AFTER it crashed into a mountain in Iceland killing 14 men, including a 3-star general. So was the Memphis Belle the first B-17 in the 8th AF to complete 25 missions over Europe AND return safely to the USA?

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Should be noted too, Capt Verinis, co-pilot of the original crew, went on to become a first pilot, or PIC, aircraft commander, and split with the crew midway through his combat tour...I do not know who replaced him, maybe several co pilots filled in...but Capt Verinis completed his tour one mission or so earlier than the rest of the crew...for the war bond tour, he was reassigned to the Belle and Morgan...he is often overlooked as "just" the co pilot...when in fact he, like so many other co pilots, were advanced to the PIC position....

There are several spins on the Belle, and the 8th AF decision to use her, but the key is, as stated, the country needed, the 8th AF needed to let folks know, crews could complete a tour...all public awareness..

was able to see the Belle several times on Mud Island, and talk with Morgan and Verinis at the Reading Air Show way back when.......

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  • 1 month later...
josesharontraders

Hi Phantomfixer & company,

 

I just won an auction of all of Col. Mogan's air badges during his memphis belle gig and then in his pacific runs and tokyo bombings. Will display it soon when i receive them from the auction house. Alas, his distinguished flying cross possessed by his widow was won by someone else.

 

Fyi-

 

josesharon

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wow way cool look forward to seeing the collection.. I met and talked with Mr Morgan and Verinis, both individually and together...went through the Belle on Mud Island years ago, and look forward to seeing it again...

and a side note spent many years watching the progress of Shoo Shoo Baby, another 91st combat vet, being restored at DAFB

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The last time I saw COL Morgan, I asked him to sign the lining of my A2 jacket, which has 91st BG insignia (as I'm a life member of the 91st BG association).

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Hi Phantomfixer & company,

 

I just won an auction of all of Col. Mogan's air badges during his memphis belle gig and then in his pacific runs and tokyo bombings. Will display it soon when i receive them from the auction house. Alas, his distinguished flying cross possessed by his widow was won by someone else.

 

Fyi-

 

josesharon

 

I was following the auctions myself. I bid on few items but did not win them. I think you are going to find some cool items in those binders of paperwork you won.

 

I met Col Morgan in Seattle and discussed with him a group I used to own to another 91st BG pilot he considered to be his best friend. His eyes teared up as we went through the photo album I had. This pilot was KIA in 1945 while also serving in the same B-29 unit he served in. They served together for the entire time.

 

The DFC on the chain was not the one awarded to him after he completed his missions with the Memphis Belle. That one was numbered and the one on the chain was not numbered. It wasnt even manufactured until 1944 or later. I have a feeling someone made it up for him as a gift after the war and had it machine engraved and gold plated. Part of that assumption is the fact the date range engraved on the medal is 1942-1945 and his rank is listed as Colonel. If it had been engraved during WWII, it would not be machine engraved like this anyway. I was surprised it went for 6 Grand considering it was not the one he was awarded in 1943. Who knows where his original 1st issue medal is.

 

The Sterling ID bracelet with the standard pilot wing, hand engraved with his name on it, was the one I remember seeing him wearing when I met him. I have a photo of he and I together and you can see the bracelet. The service number on the bracelet had an AO prefix on it which means it was engraved on the bracelet after 1948, but before the 50s, when new service numbers were given to USAF officers. The service numbers from 1948- 50's were in this format : AO-XXXXXX. ( Basically their WWII number with an A added to the front.) The ones after that were XXXXXA. They ended with an A. During WWII the format was O-XXXXXX. He was a Major in 1943-44 while flying B-29's and Became a Lt. Col. in 1944. He didnt become a full Col until much later. Based on that I would say the bracelet was from the late 40's unless he engraved his service number on it after he had already been wearing it.

 

Kurt

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  • 1 month later...
josesharontraders

 

Yeah, I know...

 

Hi Gentlemen,

 

 

At the end of 2015, I bought at auction Col. Morgan's Command Pilot Pin he used at the end of the Berlin runs and for the duration of his bombing runs in Tokyo. His widow wrote a letter, which I have, explaining how this replaced his older beat up Command Pilot Pin (which I also bought with the grouping) he received halfway into the bombings over Germany.

 

The attorney of the Mrs. Morgan included this grouping in an estate sale handled by a reputable Florida auction house. The way the letters were written, she and her husband Col. Morgan really cherished their flying abilities around the country even post war and enjoyed their lives to the fullest up to end.

 

Fyi, Señores.

 

José

 

post-160067-0-34804800-1454077144.jpg

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