Drone pilots to get medals

[Jack's Son]

At the VFW in 2025 it will be, "There I was, ...."

I can hear the story now....from a cubical, to a cockpit....from a drone, to a stealth fighter! . And if these guys have their way, he'll have the Valor Medal to prove it! :pinch:

[rr01]

I'm still having a hard time understanding the issue about these guys and whatever recognition they receive for the otherwise unheralded work they are doing everywhere they fly. Like the first decorations ever authorized it wasn't requested by the troops who would eventually receive those awards but by the people they served under, even G. Washington hisself. Back then most people preferred the bounty that used to be part of any campaign and could have cared less about a strip of ribbon that wouldn't even buy a cup of coffee.

Personally, when I see one of these guys I'm going to thank them for the work they do, for the lives they save even if I have no idea how many that might be. They are deserving of my respect whether they know what is being said here or anywhere else behind their backs. Whether this medal is approved is of no consequence to me but I continue to refuse to denigrate their work based upon a request by some general or a news article about a rated pilot who, through no choice of his own received an assignment out of the cockpit and into a recliner and then used the skills he learned in UPT to return a valuable assett safely to the runway instead of someones back yard.

My purely rhetorical questions are: Are there any career military pilots here who would resign their commission if assigned to a UAV unit? I mean forsake retirement and just plain get out, no benefits, no medical, no disability through the VA and no job except at the drive through or with a pizza delivery sign on top of your vehicle? Just walk away instead of being a UAV pilot? And what if someone you knew, possibly your own child came and told you all they were offered upon enlistment was a UAV? How bad can these people really be?

[Jack's Son]

I (for one), am NOT talking about the people who man these units! I am discussing the use of "feel good" decorations to soothe their ego's or "hazardous duty pay" for them because they control a drone that is thousands of miles AWAY and does not put them in "harms way".

 

As I have said before, proper achievement awards, and higher temporary rank while they are in this duty station should help retention.

 

AM I BEING NEIVA??

[pchepurko]

I (for one), am NOT talking about the people who man these units! I am discussing the use of "feel good" decorations to soothe their ego's or "hazardous duty pay" for them because they control a drone that is thousands of miles AWAY and does not put them in "harms way".

 

As I have said before, proper achievement awards, and higher temporary rank while they are in this duty station should help retention.

 

AM I BEING NEIVA??

 

You are spot on. But in this touchy, feely feel good world anything goes. I say bring back the draft. It will give 18 year old kids a taste of the real world.

[Kadet]

I don't know why I read these threads...but I do. Many of the opinions expressed here are completely uninformed, and tell me that the writers have absolutely no clue what UAVs and their crews really do...the incredible, strategic impact and the lives they save. I do...I've seen it up close. These are not "model airplanes"...pretty far from it actually (although there are tactical systems that are essentially RC airplanes). I'm in a very high impact corner of the military....and I take my hat off to these guys and gals. It doesn't matter to me that they are in Las Vegas or some other remote location. Again, nothing I have read indicates that DoD is contemplating valor awards for these folks. I think they are struggling w/ how best to recognize exceptional contribution in this arena without using typical combat awards. If you really understand modern awards, their criteria, precedence, tradition and rules, you will see the dilemma. But few will take the time to analyze it in this way. It is easier just to bitch about it. Why do we award CIBs and CMBs? Aren't infantrymen and medics that serve in combat just doing their job? Then there is the Bronze Star. This award was created in 1944 specifically to enhance the morale of ground troops, and to act as an equivalent to the Air Medal. Thousands of these medals were awarded to members of the "Greatest Generation" for Meritorious service having little to do w/ direct combat. Are these also invalid? The nature of warfare is shifting. This is simply a fact.

[hawkdriver]

I'm still having a hard time understanding the issue about these guys and whatever recognition they receive for the otherwise unheralded work they are doing everywhere they fly.

 

I don't think anyone has anything against any of the people, but I think where the consternation comes in is when these guys think they have a bigger chip in the game than they really do. Here is an example of what I mean. Go to this website and move the camera around:

 

http://www.flughafen-zuerich.ch/desktopdef...aspx/tabid-295/

 

Now, have you really been to Zurich Switzerland? Have you really experienced the hot days, the winter slippery days? No, you just sat in your living room and manipulated a camera. Now, lets say that the Airport president wants to give everyone who worked hard that day a ice cream cone because it was reeeeaaaalllllly hot out there. Office workers are exempted because they were inside air conditioning. You, however, get an ice cream cone mailed to you because you manipulated a camera during that hot day. Is that fair?

Now, consider all those office workers that actually had to get up, dress and drive to that airport and work there that get short changed their ice cream just because they were indoors all day while you sit in your living room in your underwear with rocky road dripping off your chin.

Simplistic approach, but it is the same case in our UAV scenario. It is quite beguiling for those of us that actually have to strap the aircraft onto our bodies and bear the marks and scars of actual flying to see one of these "console operators" get the same awards that we get and actually more frustrating when our ground support personnel whom have deployed and are living with the rockets, mortars, and shinola conditions, not getting any real awards for the support work they do, to have one of these game players get recognized for pushing a couple buttons, switches and joysticks. No more deservative of an award than my Ops Specialist that instead of going to the bunker during a sustained rocket attack, puts his armor on and sits at his radio so he can receive the 9-Line medevac request. Do you think he got any award for that action? No, turned down as "doing his job".

In my opinion, these guys are no more than administrative clerical workers. They save no more lives than the intel analyst, hospital staff, or chaplain counselors that do put on the armor and go to work in a combat zone. I am not saying they are not deservative of awards, but not more so than those that deploy.

[rr01]

How many lives were saved over the decades by those who sat alert in the missle silos dotted all around this country? None of us will ever know but many of those officers went on to senior officer rank simply for sitting so many years in the bottom of that hole. Their job differed from yours and mine only in the manner in which they "defended the Constituion" but they went about that job with far more diligence than I ever did mine. They received no great awards for what they did, no splashy headlines but they are no less deserving of my respect than Audie Murphy or Alan Bogdany. Like the POW medal, if an award is created to honor the signifigance of strategic deterrance then so be it. But I will be forever thankful there will never be valorous awards to missleers for the way they actually turned those keys.

And then there are the UAVs....tactical deterrance in action. Usually these aircraft are undected but when they are noticed I have to be confident the peolpe they fly over understand what the presence of that aircraft represents. If it stops an IED from being planted or assists in the raid on a strongpoint then they have done more of their job than the guys sitting in those silos.

If they respond and save the lives of Americans when other aircraft were at the tanker or the FARP then they deserve the same recogniton and valorous awards we bestow on the F~16 or A~10 guys for what they do {and don't worry, I know firsthand the importance of equally timely helicopter attack, replenishment and medevac being some of the most dangerous jobs short of being the grunt in the field}. They may not have endured the same field conditions as Army helicopter crews or even the UAV squads in the field but they still contributed to how those American troops returned to their families.

Somewhere earlier it was mentioned about agreeing to disagree which is what is going on here, sort of. It is not for me to say who should receive what award even if one my own provides me a nice supplement to my pension, 10% tax free, thank you very much. Do I deserve that? Long ago someone far above my paygrade wrote the law authorizing that stipend probably with another purpose in mind but I still benefit. Others may argue that I am undeserving and I will not completely disagree but I'll still take the money. And since "I have mine" I have an even appreciation for those who do not receive the same recognition for the tremendous work they do in the support arena. But then there are varying degrees of support and close air support is probably the most intense. It may not seem as intense from that recliner. at least so we may think but since I have never sat in that recliner and had to watch Americans die while field commanders held back recovery helicopters until darkness I cannot appreciate the depth of that job.

Which brings to mind the controllers of my earliest days, often voices in the night or bad weather who were able to summon the support we would need on a particular mission simply by pushing a button on a console telephone in his air conditioned office and telling the guy on the other end; "launch the fighters". Just for that act he was eligible for a Bronze Star though all I may have received at the end of the mission was a ride back to the team area to repack gear and come back up on alert. To this day I don't care what award that guy received while not getting shot at, I only care that he was able to push that button on his console telephone. Now, the woman who eventually became the Mother of my children would differ today on that point but that's a story for another time better told with a whiskey in one hand.

[Jack's Son]

It was only a matter of time! I'm not saying that it is an easy task to control a drone, but there is no element of risk to the controller, as there is in battlefield operations.

As usual, some will dismiss my opinion because I haven't served, but I do have an opinion. AND, by God, I pay my taxes!

Kadet,

I did qualify myself in my first post. ALL I WANT IS THE OPPERTUNITY TO EXPRESS MY OPINION......that's all. Through reading many qualified opinions, I have the chance to "learn more", but I don't like to be stifled while I learn.

Please be patient with those of us who don't know all of the answers yet. I do however have another question......

 

How many Distungished Flying Crosses, Purple Hearts, Air Medals and the like we're awarded to the men who sat in Missle Silos in the 60's and 70's?

[rr01]

Kadet,

I did qualify myself in my first post. ALL I WANT IS THE OPPERTUNITY TO EXPRESS MY OPINION......that's all. Through reading many qualified opinions, I have the chance to "learn more", but I don't like to be stifled while I learn.

Please be patient with those of us who don't know all of the answers yet. I do however have another question......

How many Distungished Flying Crosses, Purple Hearts, Air Medals and the like we're awarded to the men who sat in Missle Silos in the 60's and 70's?

Thankfully, none.

[juvatwad]

The bottom line is what UAV "drivers" do is not dangerous. They do not put themselves at risk for bodily harm. They shouldn't rate air medals or valor awards. They shouldn't even wear flight suits. I only know one former squadron mate of mine who initially got out to join the airlines. After 9/11 he was furloughed and came back in. He didn't get a viper slot, so chose UAVs. He has never equated what he does now to what he did when he strapped a viper to his back.

[seanmc1114]

Again, nothing I have read indicates that DoD is contemplating valor awards for these folks. I think they are struggling w/ how best to recognize exceptional contribution in this arena without using typical combat awards.

True, but why does this particular function need any special recognition at all that isn't already available? Under the criteria mentioned in the article that prompted this thread, the proposed award will rank higher in precedence than the Soldier's-Airman's-Navy & Marine Corps Medals, Bronze Star, Meritorious Service Medal and the Air Medal. Think about it for a minute, except for individual acts of heroism, most service members who serve directly in a combat zone and participate in direct ground combat will never receive anything higher than a Bronze Star, if that. How many Legions Of Merit or Distinguished Service Medals have been awarded to anyone under the rank of Lt. Col. in the last 50 years?

 

If the actions of a UAV operator deserve special recognition, there are already medals in the system that can adequately do that. Heck, if they really want to be generous, why not expand the eligibility for the Bronze Star to someone far removed from a combat zone who directly controls assets or equipment within the combat zone? I just don't see the justification for what is being proposed.

[Kadet]

True, but why does this particular function need any special recognition at all that isn't already available? Under the criteria mentioned in the article that prompted this thread, the proposed award will rank higher in precedence than the Soldier's-Airman's-Navy & Marine Corps Medals, Bronze Star, Meritorious Service Medal and the Air Medal. Think about it for a minute, except for individual acts of heroism, most service members who serve directly in a combat zone and participate in direct ground combat will never receive anything higher than a Bronze Star, if that. How many Legions Of Merit or Distinguished Service Medals have been awarded to anyone under the rank of Lt. Col. in the last 50 years?

 

If the actions of a UAV operator deserve special recognition, there are already medals in the system that can adequately do that. Heck, if they really want to be generous, why not expand the eligibility for the Bronze Star to someone far removed from a combat zone who directly controls assets or equipment within the combat zone? I just don't see the justification for what is being proposed.

 

 

In certain cases, and for certain missions....hell yes their actions rate special recognition. The problem is that, rightly so, the combat awards typically given to aviators are inappropriate. By this I mean the DFC and AM. The Bronze Star cannot be awarded for actions related to flight. Using it would totally undermined the originalintent of the award. essentially what they are contemplating is a version of the DFC which rewards exceptional actions, but is clearly distinguished from the DFC.

[rr01]

The bottom line is what UAV "drivers" do is not dangerous. They do not put themselves at risk for bodily harm. They shouldn't rate air medals or valor awards. They shouldn't even wear flight suits. I only know one former squadron mate of mine who initially got out to join the airlines. After 9/11 he was furloughed and came back in. He didn't get a viper slot, so chose UAVs. He has never equated what he does now to what he did when he strapped a viper to his back.

First, I'll agree that there may not be the same risk of bodily harm as piloting an aircraft, I even prefer to fly my own airplane vs the days of my youth when the first powered plane I had was on a tehther and the best I could do with it was simple aerobatics while trying not to get dizzy from going around in constant circles. But the following two URLs make it abundantly clear as to the scope of responsibilities with either mission:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Ha...otdown_incident

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/af...e-drone-strike/

 

While looking up the above I also took another look at the topic as posted across the WWW and came across this one:

http://newamerica.net/publications/article...ve_medals_70176

 

What is important and might have been previously overlooked is that this proposed medal is actually intended to preserve the importance of the other awards it will be ranked with. This makes a lot of sense when you consider how many other medals from the last century such as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Brevet_Medal.

I'm not exactly sure of some of this but the DFC strikes me as an all encompassing decoration that might be as commonly awarded as the Air Medal to it's greater importance on a par with the DSC/AFC/NC. True, the ranking on the ribbon bar is the same but it is the text of the issued orders where the importance of the DFC is actually made.

The Bronze Star has had a checkered life since it was first authorized and continues to be undermined as a valorous award because it is also authorized for meritious service, as is the DFC.

Sooooo, this effort to creat an award distinguished from the two it will be similar to might not be a bad idea. Yes, the other, currently authorized awards would suffice but then so did the USAF Air Medal until it also became overused and the Aerial Achievement Medal was created. Why? Probably for the same reason, to maintain the original integrity of the Air Medal.

[Kadet]

First, I'll agree that there may not be the same risk of bodily harm as piloting an aircraft, I even prefer to fly my own airplane vs the days of my youth when the first powered plane I had was on a tehther and the best I could do with it was simple aerobatics while trying not to get dizzy from going around in constant circles. But the following two URLs make it abundantly clear as to the scope of responsibilities with either mission:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Ha...otdown_incident

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/af...e-drone-strike/

 

While looking up the above I also took another look at the topic as posted across the WWW and came across this one:

http://newamerica.net/publications/article...ve_medals_70176

 

What is important and might have been previously overlooked is that this proposed medal is actually intended to preserve the importance of the other awards it will be ranked with. This makes a lot of sense when you consider how many other medals from the last century such as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Brevet_Medal.

I'm not exactly sure of some of this but the DFC strikes me as an all encompassing decoration that might be as commonly awarded as the Air Medal to it's greater importance on a par with the DSC/AFC/NC. True, the ranking on the ribbon bar is the same but it is the text of the issued orders where the importance of the DFC is actually made.

The Bronze Star has had a checkered life since it was first authorized and continues to be undermined as a valorous award because it is also authorized for meritious service, as is the DFC.

Sooooo, this effort to creat an award distinguished from the two it will be similar to might not be a bad idea. Yes, the other, currently authorized awards would suffice but then so did the USAF Air Medal until it also became overused and the Aerial Achievement Medal was created. Why? Probably for the same reason, to maintain the original integrity of the Air Medal.

 

 

Yes...this is my point! The intent here is actually to recognize exceptional achievement without ruining the intent of other awards. I think this is a logical approach. Also, the Bronze Star has always been awarded for both valor and meritorious service. Thousands of meritorious service BSMs were awarded in WWII, the only distinction between meritorious service and valor being the citation wording. The "V" device was created after WWII to make a visual distinction between the two. Also, from the comments in this thread, I have to conclude that some don't really understand the precedence of modern awards.

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/o...precedence.aspx

 

You can see that there are peacetime service awards that take precedence above valorous awards. Valorous awards are not automatically at the top of the pyramid. Also, in actual practice...the difference between a DFC and a NC/DSC is astronomical. Not even in the same ballpark. I think a DFC-like award for UAV crews who distinguish themselves actually makes perfect sense...unmanned air vehicles are here to stay, whether some want to admit it or not...and they have had an enormous impact in our current fight. Single seat fighter pilots are right there w/ the T-rex and dodo bird IMO. If you look back in history, I think you will find that regular Army and Navy officers once made similar denigrating comments about aviators and their chosen warfare specialties... and something tells me that there were once similar arguments against creating awards specifically for aviators. Now their existence is written in stone.

[Kadet]

..also note that this new award would take precedence behind the DFC..which is also appropriate IMO

[rr01]

Also, in actual practice...the difference between a DFC and a NC/DSC is astronomical.....

Just a small correction regarding a little known fact about the DFC sometimes being on a par with the DSC/NC/AFC.

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/d...ying_cross.aspx

 

d. The current statutory requirements for award of the Distinguished Flying Cross to Army personnel is contained in Title 10, U.S.C., Section 3749; Section 6245 for Navy personnel; and Section 8749 for Air Force personnel. Enlisted personnel may be entitled to a 10% increase in retired pay under Title 10, U.S.C., Section 3991, when credited with heroism equivalent to that required for the award of the Distinguished Service Cross.

 

Not intended to contradict the crux of your post.

[seanmc1114]

..also note that this new award would take precedence behind the DFC..which is also appropriate IMO

But it would still outrank the Bronze Star and Soldier's Medal. . .which is totally inappropriate IMO.

 

For the sake of clarifying the argument here, what exactly is it that UAV operators do versus what, for example an infantryman or artilleryman or Apache pilot do, that some on this forum think is so unique in the annals of military occupations that they should rate a separate medal for their actions?

 

Keep in mind that if the proposed medal ranks in precedence the way it has been proposed, there are only three decorations which an infantryman engaged in ground combat with the enemy might ever receive that would outrank the proposed medal for UAV operators - Silver Star, DSC and Medal Of Honor. (I know, there's the Legion Of Merit and DSM, but not very likely for anyone but a senior officer.)

[Kadet]

Just a small correction regarding a little known fact about the DFC sometimes being on a par with the DSC/NC/AFC.

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/d...ying_cross.aspx

 

d. The current statutory requirements for award of the Distinguished Flying Cross to Army personnel is contained in Title 10, U.S.C., Section 3749; Section 6245 for Navy personnel; and Section 8749 for Air Force personnel. Enlisted personnel may be entitled to a 10% increase in retired pay under Title 10, U.S.C., Section 3991, when credited with heroism equivalent to that required for the award of the Distinguished Service Cross.

 

Not intended to contradict the crux of your post.

 

 

Interesting fact...I never knew that...although in reality, at least in modern use, I stand by my previous comments about the prestige of the two awards....not even in the same league.

[rr01]

But it would still outrank the Bronze Star and Soldier's Medal. . .which is totally inappropriate IMO.

 

For the sake of clarifying the argument here, what exactly is it that UAV operators do versus what, for example an infantryman or artilleryman or Apache pilot do, that some on this forum think is so unique in the annals of military occupations that they should rate a separate medal for their actions?

 

Keep in mind that if the proposed medal ranks in precedence the way it has been proposed, there are only three decorations which an infantryman engaged in ground combat with the enemy might ever receive that would outrank the proposed medal for UAV operators - Silver Star, DSC and Medal Of Honor. (I know, there's the Legion Of Merit and DSM, but not very likely for anyone but a senior officer.)

Awards & decs can be just as confounding in real life as they are here. For one thing, You cannot have a real basis for comparison with two such disparate jobs. If you accept that this new decoration is NOT intended to place the UAV driver higher on any pedestal than a grunt then it's easier to accept. The award of this proposed decoration is to put the mission in context to the anyone else who sees the decoration being worn. If adopted then the UAV driver should never wear a Bronze Star, Silver Star or any other valorous award intended to be awarded for true combat operations. He or she will never be eligible for the DSC or MoH though the variety of jobs they do is more diverse than just putting a laser designator on a target for a missle.

But, to clarify as you asked:

The UAV can quietly loiter and provide video feeds from a vantage point a grunt cannot. The UAV can also remain undetected in a close combat area for long periods of time, an Apache cannot. The artilleryman has a greater need for logistical support just to get one gun to a vantage point which still results in a limited field of fire. The UAV can and does respond to a greater distance than the range of most artillery.

But, the UAV also has limitations that the others don't. The grunt gets to operate in bad weather. The artillery has more rounds at their disposal as does the Apache.

As the article said, the part of the purpose of this award is to keep it distinctive from the more traditionally valorous in the field.

Possibly someone else can offer a better explanation on the difference.

[rr01]

Interesting fact...I never knew that...although in reality, at least in modern use, I stand by my previous comments about the prestige of the two awards....not even in the same league.

Actually, that IS the current usage with the most recent awards going to Coast Guard rescue swimmers.

[juvatwad]

If awarded, its precedence should be at the AF Commendation ribbon (the good old PCS award) level.

[rr01]

If awarded, its precedence should be at the AF Commendation ribbon (the good old PCS award) level.

Actually, the Commendation Medal is another catch~all award at a somewhat lower level. While normally awarded as you mentioned it can also be awarded for a singlar action including..................valor.

The same is also true of the MSM and Bronze Star.

[atb]

I do not believe the MSM can be awarded for valor. In that case, at that level of award, the BSM with "V" device is the proper one. It is only recently that the MSM was authorized for award in a "combat zone." It was done to reduce the number of meritorious achievement BSM awards being made and enhance the prestige of the BSM a bit.

[seanmc1114]

The thing I'm still confused about is whether the Distinguished Warfare Medal being proposed, and which is the basis for this forum, is intended to have broad criteria and be awarded across a whole range of military occupations or is intended solely to recognize the actions of UAV operators as the original article suggests. Does anyone know?

[juvatwad]

Actually, the Commendation Medal is another catch~all award at a somewhat lower level. While normally awarded as you mentioned it can also be awarded for a singlar action including..................valor.

The same is also true of the MSM and Bronze Star.

 

No one in todays's AF gives the commendation medal a second (or even first) thought, since just about everyone gets one around every three years. So in practice, it draws no special attention.