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WWI 2nd Div. USMC MG'er Patch

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I have the opportunity to purchase this patch out of a very old collection, however, I am uncertain if it's authentic. I have never seen an original WWI 2nd Division patch constructed in this manner. The entire patch appears to be mostly hand embroidered. Any help would be greatly appreciated. S/F, Chuck

 

I cannot get the photos to load... any help? I tried to crop them without success.


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I have the opportunity to purchase this patch out of a very old collection, however, I am uncertain if it's authentic. I have never seen an original WWI 2nd Division patch constructed in this manner. The entire patch appears to be mostly hand embroidered. Any help would be greatly appreciated. S/F, Chuck

 

I cannot get the photos to load... any help? I tried to crop them without success.

 

 

Hi Chuck,

 

PM the photo(s) to me and I'll get them posted for you!

 

s/f, Gary


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**PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER HAS SADLY PASSED AWAY**

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/15996-please-read-gary-mohrlang-glm/

 

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Hi Chuck,

 

PM the photo(s) to me and I'll get them posted for you!

 

s/f, Gary

 

Hello Gary,

 

Thank You... The three photos I received have been sent (hopefully). If you didn't get them please PM your email address. I have emailed these three photos to Chris also.

 

S/F,

 

Chuck


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Hello Gary,

 

Thank You... The three photos I received have been sent (hopefully). If you didn't get them please PM your email address. I have emailed these three photos to Chris also.

 

S/F,

 

Chuck

Here are Chuck's photos:

 

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Thanks, Chris! I only received two of the photos. Don't know if my resizing did anything more, but here's how they came out with my software.

 

Chuck - I think I would be jumping on this patch if it were offered to me. I'm anxiously awaiting other opinions.

 

EDIT NOTE: Chuck, I forgot to mention, but this patch doesn't look hand embroidered to me. It looks more like a hand guided machine embroidery. Looks like the embroiderer used Marine green bobbin thread to boot. Maybe the first, original "green back" SSI?

 

s/f, Gary

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Gary,

 

I have the opposite opinion of this one. In my opinion it looks like Korean or Japanese hand-machine embroidery of the 70's.

 

Chris

 

 

 

Thanks, Chris! I only received two of the photos. Don't know if my resizing did anything more, but here's how they came out with my software.

 

Chuck - I think I would be jumping on this patch if it were offered to me. I'm anxiously awaiting other opinions.

 

s/f, Gary


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Thanks, Chris! I only received two of the photos. Don't know if my resizing did anything more, but here's how they came out with my software.

 

Chuck - I think I would be jumping on this patch if it were offered to me. I'm anxiously awaiting other opinions.

 

s/f, Gary

 

I got Chris's opinion... so far we are tied 1-1... actually 2-1... there is one other long time collector who thinks it's legit. The only info I have on it is that it was inherited from her Grandfather who built his collection from the 20's - 40's.

 

S/F,

 

Chuck


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Gary,

 

I have the opposite opinion of this one. In my opinion it looks like Korean or Japanese hand-machine embroidery of the 70's.

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

If the patch was made in the 70's, would it glow under a black light? It was tested and does not glow. Is there another method of testing?

 

S/F,

 

Chuck


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Gary,

 

I have the opposite opinion of this one. In my opinion it looks like Korean or Japanese hand-machine embroidery of the 70's.

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

As always, I respect and listen carefully to your opinions, especially when discussing early USMC and WWI. If this patch was made in the 1970's, someone went through an awful lot of tomfoolery by sewing it down and mistreating it to get that aged, sewn look, but that's understandable, considering what the WWI 6th MG patches are going for these days. Is it because of the ripple effect around the edges that so many Japanese, Korean patches acquire over time, or just that you have seen these as fakes before?

 

Do you or anyone else have examples of the 1970's fakes you mention. I can always plead ignorance because I don't collect these types of patches and don't study them closely, but it would be worth seeing some other examples if indeed it is a fake. Now that's scary! The mega-huge scans Chuck sent to us show close up what I considered to be righteous early hand guided machine embroidery, but who is better at that type of embroidery than the Japanese or Koreans.

 

Gary


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**PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER HAS SADLY PASSED AWAY**

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Gary,

 

Thanks for the kind words.

 

I have never seen a WW1 patch that looks like this one before. My guess, and this is just my opinion, is that this patch was made in the 2nd Division Area around Uijongbu, Korea sometime in the 1960s-1980s probably for a 2nd Division "party jacket" or "party suit" or possibly some other commemorative reason (maybe around 1968 during the 50th anniversary of the Division forming). It has probably been washed by the House-boy or Mama-san many many times giving it that salty look. Perhaps some soldier saw the patch at the 2nd Division Museum in Korea and had Mr Kim make one up for him. Maybe his Grandfather was in the Division, and he had a custom jacket made as a gift? I do think you are spot on, about it being hand-guided, machine embroidery, but I think that it was done closer to 1971 than 1917. When I was stationed there, you could have just about any patch you could think of made-cheap.

 

Here are my thoughts on this patch:

- There appear to be remnants of tight, straight-line machine stitching around the border of the patch. WW1 patches were rarely machine sewn to uniforms.

- There are machine embroidered WW1 patches, but this one just looks to me like the patches we wore in Korea when I was statioend there in the 1980s. I remember going downtown to the ville, having party suit's made, and seeing Miss Kim's handi-work on the Brother Embroidery Machines; and well; it looked just like this. Those Brother machines were very high speed, and by working the foot pedals, and moving the patch around, those ladies could make areas flat, build them up, blend colors--it was an art form in itself. However, the early 1918 era embroidery machines were much simpler by comparison, and weren't as capable of this very tight stitching.

- WW1 machine embroidered patches typically are embroidered on felt or wool. You also can see the background material because they typically do not have a merrowed edgeing.

- At one time, silk thread was very common and cheaper than synthetics in Korea and Japan. Silk does not glow under black light

 

As always, these are just my opinions. But of the hundreds and hundreds of WW1 patches I have handled, none of them have looked like this one.

 

As always, I could be wrong. But I just don't like this patch for WW1. I know it is a very rare patch, and Chuck probably really wants for it to be good, but I just can't give it my endorsement.

 

Best wishes.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

Chris,

 

As always, I respect and listen carefully to your opinions, especially when discussing early USMC and WWI. If this patch was made in the 1970's, someone went through an awful lot of tomfoolery by sewing it down and mistreating it to get that aged, sewn look, but that's understandable, considering what the WWI 6th MG patches are going for these days. Is it because of the ripple effect around the edges that so many Japanese, Korean patches acquire over time, or just that you have seen these as fakes before?

 

Do you or anyone else have examples of the 1970's fakes you mention. I can always plead ignorance because I don't collect these types of patches and don't study them closely, but it would be worth seeing some other examples if indeed it is a fake. Now that's scary! The mega-huge scans Chuck sent to us show close up what I considered to be righteous early hand guided machine embroidery, but who is better at that type of embroidery than the Japanese or Koreans.

 

Gary


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I guess I'll throw in my two cents on this one. I agree with Chris and can also say that this particular example doesn't corralate with any 2nd division patch I have seen before. Not only the construction, but the artwork as well, it just gives me that "modern" vibe. I have seen some strange looking Indians on 2nd Div patches before, but this one is right up there, especially the headdress portion. Just my opinion, but if I were in your shoes, I think I would pass on this one and not feel too bad about it.

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Chris and Gary,

 

Thanks for taking the time to provide your opinions.

 

Gary - I would not have given this patch a second glance if not for the "mega-huge scans" I received, and right now I agree more with your opinion. I also considered the fact that this women does not have a clue as to what she inherited... She doesn't even know the difference between Army or Marine. To my knowledge she is currently seeking advice from Bob Thorpe and myself. These patches came out of nowhere... The only reference she goes by is a copy of a 1919 National Geographic magazine.

 

Chris - I too have had 100's of these patches pass through my hands over the last 35 years. I too have never seen one that looks like this. I have also had 100's of WWI 2nd Division REPRODUCTIONS pass through my hands and have NEVER seen one made like this. Other than your tour in Korea in the 1980's please provide credible evidence. I made my South East Asia tour in the early-mid 1970's and have seen Mr. Kim's embroidery skills in Korea, Japan, Okinawa, Thailand, etc., etc. etc. ... yes, they were good. Marines didn't call them "party jacket" or "party suit", at least not back then. I have some of that "gung ho" stuff locked in an old footlocker... and from comparison with this patch I disagree... they are not the same.

 

I am not going to lose any sleep one way or the other... if it's good Outstanding, if not, I'll move on to the next.

 

I have asked for additional information from the seller and if I get it I will keep all informed. If anybody else can provide additional information one way or the other on this patch please feel free to do so.

 

Semper Fi,

 

Chuck


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Chuck,

 

Unfortunately, I don't have anything truly credible other than a feeling based on my own years of experience, and having never seen a WW1 patch even remotely like this one before. Regardless, whether it was made in 1981 or 1918, it certainly is a unique patch. Heck, if you can pick it up cheap enough, if nothing else, it is interesting!

 

But at the end of the day, if you are happy with it, that is all that matters.

 

Best wishes!

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

Chris and Gary,

 

Thanks for taking the time to provide your opinions.

 

Gary - I would not have given this patch a second glance if not for the "mega-huge scans" I received, and right now I agree more with your opinion. I also considered the fact that this women does not have a clue as to what she inherited... She doesn't even know the difference between Army or Marine. To my knowledge she is currently seeking advice from Bob Thorpe and myself. These patches came out of nowhere... The only reference she goes by is a copy of a 1919 National Geographic magazine.

 

Chris - I too have had 100's of these patches pass through my hands over the last 35 years. I too have never seen one that looks like this. I have also had 100's of WWI 2nd Division REPRODUCTIONS pass through my hands and have NEVER seen one made like this. Other than your tour in Korea in the 1980's please provide credible evidence. I made my South East Asia tour in the early-mid 1970's and have seen Mr. Kim's embroidery skills in Korea, Japan, Okinawa, Thailand, etc., etc. etc. ... yes, they were good. Marines didn't call them "party jacket" or "party suit", at least not back then. I have some of that "gung ho" stuff locked in an old footlocker... and from comparison with this patch I disagree... they are not the same.

 

I am not going to lose any sleep one way or the other... if it's good Outstanding, if not, I'll move on to the next.

 

I have asked for additional information from the seller and if I get it I will keep all informed. If anybody else can provide additional information one way or the other on this patch please feel free to do so.

 

Semper Fi,

 

Chuck


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Chuck,

 

Unfortunately, I don't have anything truly credible other than a feeling based on my own years of experience, and having never seen a WW1 patch even remotely like this one before. Regardless, whether it was made in 1981 or 1918, it certainly is a unique patch. Heck, if you can pick it up cheap enough, if nothing else, it is interesting!

 

But at the end of the day, if you are happy with it, that is all that matters.

 

Best wishes!

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Thanks again for your honest opinion. I am not convinced yet one way or the other. I will have the patch shortly for an in hands inspection and will have to make a decision then.

 

S/F,

 

Chuck


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Chris,

 

If the patch was made in the 70's, would it glow under a black light? It was tested and does not glow. Is there another method of testing?

 

S/F,

 

Chuck

 

Hi Chuck,

 

I've got some fairly recent made WWII type cut edge USMC 1st and 3rd Marine Division patches I won in a lot on eBay. The white reverse bobbin threads give the appearance of nylon or synthetic, but don't glow under UV for some reason. I still don't know whats up with that, but a burn test confirms synthetic. The burnt thread balls up into a hard knot, so the patches are definately not old.

 

If the owner of the patch will give permission, it might not hurt to do a burn test on a loose thread or two from the reverse of the patch in question. Not the threads from it being sewn down, but a couple of the actual patch embroidery threads. Cotton thread burns like a fuze and leaves no residue. It just burns away. The ash powder will just be a black smudge on your fingertips. Nylon or synthetic thread burns or melts into a hard ball and can't be crushed in the fingertips. Silk thread burns pretty much like synthetic thread and will melt into a ball, but it turns to powder when squeezed between the fingers. Silk thread smoke , when burning, will smell like a burning bug. The burn test only gives a reasonable guess as to what type of material was used, not always when a particular patch was made.

 

As Chris already pointed out, it's you that has to be happy with the deal at the end of the day, but I've had some very serious discussions with Chris in the past regarding early USMC and WWI and he definately knows his stuff. If he says there is something he doesn't like about this patch, it might be well worth his advice to proceed with caution, that's for sure.

 

s/f, Gary


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**PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER HAS SADLY PASSED AWAY**

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/15996-please-read-gary-mohrlang-glm/

 

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Hey guys, have followed this thread and just wanted to say thank you for the information shared here and kudo's on the dialoge too... great thread thumbsup.gif s/f Darrell



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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Korean made, 1960s or 70s. Most of my rationale would be repetitive of what has been posted. The OD border is a dead giveaway, in addition to the style of manufacture - fully embroidered, note the OD "back". Nothing I;ve seen WW I has been made like this. I have seen lots of Korean-made US Army 2nd ID pacthes for the 60s-80s, and the Indianhead looks quite similar.

 

Why was it made? Maybe to add to a collection because the collector couldn't find one.


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OK... I received the patch... spent about 5 minutes with it... then put it back in the envelop. thumbdown.gif

 

I would like to thank everyone who took the time to express an opinion. I received posts on this thread, PM's here and the WAF, and input to my personal email.

 

With what I've seen coming out of this old collection so far perhaps my thoughts and vision became blurry on this one.

 

Chris... Semper Fi! to you my friend you nailed this one from the beginning. Let me know what brand of cigars you smoke and I'll send you one. You can put on your Korean "party jacket" and have a smoke on me.

 

Semper Fi,

 

Chuck


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Chuck,

 

Thankfully, the days of party suits and "ville-runs" are a distant (but fond) memory. Being a family forum, I naturally can't discuss some of those memories, but that old Willy Nelson/Julio Inglesias song comes to mind... whistling.gif These days I usually just pour myself a single-malt and surround myself with my collection.

 

Best wishes, and happy hunting!

 

Chris

 

Chris... Semper Fi! to you my friend you nailed this one from the beginning. Let me know what brand of cigars you smoke and I'll send you one. You can put on your Korean "party jacket" and have a smoke on me.

 

Semper Fi,

 

Chuck


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Chuck,

 

Thankfully, the days of party suits and "ville-runs" are a distant (but fond) memory. Being a family forum, I naturally can't discuss some of those memories, but that old Willy Nelson/Julio Inglesias song comes to mind... whistling.gif These days I usually just pour myself a single-malt and surround myself with my collection.

 

Best wishes, and happy hunting!

 

Chris

 

DITTO :blush: ... ain't life grand! s/f Darrell



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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