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Vietnam camo SOG or SF jacket


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By the way, I agree with Steve that this is not a fight or ego blast. The only thing that bothers me about these forums (and one of the reasons that I participate in few of them) are individuals that will not answer questions forthrightly and the ones who try to pit one member against another. If someone disagrees with me, that is fine, but I would like to have specific reasons as to why. And of course I will reply as to why I think the way I do.

I hope the French members don't think we are "ganging up" on them. We do have an advantage by being American and having more direct contact with Viet Nam veterans. However, the French members have some great items and, I would say at this time, are very advanced in Viet Nam collecting.

I agree with Mike in 100%!

Sorry I used a bad word "fight" But in my opinion the USA collector like Mike Tucker have more correct knowlage about SOG unit, uniforms than French and to call in question his opinion is not right...

of course this is forum...:)

 

Respect for all

JK

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The photograph of Bowra wearing ERDL is not when he was with RT Idaho. I have many images of him in RT Idaho and he is only wearing OD jungle jackets. Some of his OD jackets had been modified. After leaving RT Idaho, he went to Cambodia to help with training and I am pretty sure that is when these photographs were taken. I think this because none of the indigenous soldiers around him are from RT Idaho. He only ran a few missions with RT Idaho before transferring to Cambodia, so the picture of him with the indig is not another version of RT Idaho. By this time (1973-74) ERDL had worked its way into the system to become more available to SF. I have few photographs of SF, and especially SOG, men wearing ERDL prior to 1972.

 

 

Mike, thanks for sharing the information, but in the Stanton book, the picture legend said that it was taken in 71 and the asian guy was an indig interpreter (the name seem to be Viet name for me) who was killed shortly after. Was Stanton wrong ?

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Mike, thanks for sharing the information, but in the Stanton book, the picture legend said that it was taken in 71 and the asian guy was an indig interpreter (the name seem to be Viet name for me) who was killed shortly after. Was Stanton wrong ?

 

Considering Stanton practically got his own chapter in the book Stolen Valor for embellishing his military service and for selfishly absconding with military documents for his books, I would question anything he says. His uniforms in Ian Sutherland's book are also fantasy pieces used to bolster his fantasy SF career of running recon, etc.

 

---Chris

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Considering Stanton practically got his own chapter in the book Stolen Valor for embellishing his military service and for selfishly absconding with military documents for his books, I would question anything he says. His uniforms in Ian Sutherland's book are also fantasy pieces used to bolster his fantasy SF career of running recon, etc.

 

---Chris

 

I've always understood that Ken Bowra photograph to be from when he was with FANK. The indigenous soldiers look Cambodian.

 

---Chris

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Chris, the ten or so "over the fence" jackets/uniforms owned by Jason are the actual ones that belonged to SOG veterans that were used to do cross border operations. I was present when he acquired one of these uniforms from a SOG vet who had a photograph of himself wearing the same uniform.

 

Mike,

I may own this uniform you speak of with the accompanying photograph. Do you remember if the set had black spray painted camo and blood types on the pants and jacket? Also, one of the cargo pockets on the pants was torn off during a hectic extraction. Maybe it's not the same uniform? Jason has plenty of amazing named uniforms with photographs.

 

---Chris

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In the Bowra pic the guy on the far right with the M79 has a Mike Force patch or something like that. Maybe it doesn't show in that pic. Maybe it's me but these indig look too well equiped to be Cambodians unless it's a Cambodian RT.

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Considering Stanton practically got his own chapter in the book Stolen Valor for embellishing his military service and for selfishly absconding with military documents for his books, I would question anything he says. His uniforms in Ian Sutherland's book are also fantasy pieces used to bolster his fantasy SF career of running recon, etc.

 

---Chris

 

 

Do you have any proof of those charges? Please see the post at http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...ost&p=94852 - One author (Burkett) in one book made some allegations and Stanton says Burkett is just plain wrong. At best it's a case of "he said, he said" but sometimes when someone disagrees with a point in one of Stanton's books they dredge up their version of Burkett's allegations in an attempt to prove you can't trust Stanton's books. Stanton may be guilty of factual errors - that happens to all historians - but his books are well respected and authoritative sources and until someone comes up with documentation of wrong-doing (Burkett doesn't count) we cannot permit potentially libelous statements to go unchallenged because otherwise such unsubstantiated allegations gain new life and feed the rumor mill. If someone wants to start a Shelby Stanton thread to post any facts they have, fine, but otherwise please don't sling mud at him for the sake of making a point about a piece of militaria. You wouldn't want it to happen to you, would you?

 

thanks...


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Do you have any proof of those charges? Please see the post at http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...ost&p=94852 - One author (Burkett) in one book made some allegations and Stanton says Burkett is just plain wrong. At best it's a case of "he said, he said" but sometimes when someone disagrees with a point in one of Stanton's books they dredge up their version of Burkett's allegations in an attempt to prove you can't trust Stanton's books. Stanton may be guilty of factual errors - that happens to all historians - but his books are well respected and authoritative sources and until someone comes up with documentation of wrong-doing (Burkett doesn't count) we cannot permit potentially libelous statements to go unchallenged because otherwise such unsubstantiated allegations gain new life and feed the rumor mill. If someone wants to start a Shelby Stanton thread to post any facts they have, fine, but otherwise please don't sling mud at him for the sake of making a point about a piece of militaria. You wouldn't want it to happen to you, would you?

 

thanks...

 

My comments were based off Burkett's books and comments made by notable SF historians and archivists. However, this is a road that I am not interested in traveling.

 

Despite the controversy surrounding Stanton, his books are excellent references. My point was that anyone can make an error, even an author. It would not surprise me if the Bowra photo was described incorrectly in Stanton's book.

 

---Chris

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Chris, I don't know if the 1971 date on the Bowra photograph is correct. I do know that Bowra left RT Idaho at the end of 1972 and went to RT Sidewinder. As you, I thought the photos of him in ERDL were taken on his FANK tour. I may be wrong and they may be of him with RT Sidewinder after 1972, which once again, may explain the ERDL, it being a later date. I am not sure where he was in 1971, but will try to find out. I will try to find some photographs of Bowra that I know I have of him during this time.

The "cross border" uniform belonged to Jim Shorten-Jones and it was spray painted.

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Chris, I don't know if the 1971 date on the Bowra photograph is correct. I do know that Bowra left RT Idaho at the end of 1972 and went to RT Sidewinder. As you, I thought the photos of him in ERDL were taken on his FANK tour. I may be wrong and they may be of him with RT Sidewinder after 1972, which once again, may explain the ERDL, it being a later date. I am not sure where he was in 1971, but will try to find out. I will try to find some photographs of Bowra that I know I have of him during this time.

The "cross border" uniform belonged to Jim Shorten-Jones and it was spray painted.

 

Spike,

You make a good point about the indigenous troops being pretty geared out for FANK. Who knows??? I do know that the two FANK vets I keep in touch with never wore modified uniforms. They did wear ERDLs though.

 

Mike,

That is not the same uniform I have.

 

---Chris

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Hello,

 

I think Chris was right, troops were quite heavily armed, I was told that only SOG or elite recon units could use CAR-15 carbines, other indig units (Viet or Khmer) were equiped with M-16 or M-1 carbine. And we can see that Ken Bowra wore a STABO like his fellow US SF. Should he wear Stabo while training troops ?

 

Cheers

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I have looked at the indigenous personnel in RT Sidewinder for 1972+ and none of them are in the picture with Lt. Bowra. I think Lt. Bowra designed the sky blue, square RT Sidewinder patch with a snake on it.

Bowra may have been in RT Cobra earlier in his career. Maybe this team is RT Cobra. Will find out.

I have found a photograph that I think Jerome is going to like. I will post it tomorrow.

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Chris, the ten or so "over the fence" jackets/uniforms owned by Jason are the actual ones that belonged to SOG veterans that were used to do cross border operations. I was present when he acquired one of these uniforms from a SOG vet who had a photograph of himself wearing the same uniform.

The photograph of Bowra wearing ERDL is not when he was with RT Idaho. I have many images of him in RT Idaho and he is only wearing OD jungle jackets. Some of his OD jackets had been modified. After leaving RT Idaho, he went to Cambodia to help with training and I am pretty sure that is when these photographs were taken. I think this because none of the indigenous soldiers around him are from RT Idaho. He only ran a few missions with RT Idaho before transferring to Cambodia, so the picture of him with the indig is not another version of RT Idaho. By this time (1973-74) ERDL had worked its way into the system to become more available to SF. I have few photographs of SF, and especially SOG, men wearing ERDL prior to 1972.

 

The information about Bowra I am am sure about. However the I do not agree with the comment that "By this time (1973-74) ERDL had worked its way into the system to become more available to SF." ERDL was issued from around 1968 in the poplin version and 1969 in the ripstop type. That was plenty of time for it to work its way in to the system to become more available to SF. There must be another reason for the lack of its use by SF. It might be that they as a whole did not like it. I think it was a preference thing. For MACV-SOG maybe they thought that OG Jungle uniform spray painted worked best and that was that. It could have also been fashion. It was more fashionable to wear Tigers in Mike teams. Maybe it was rivalry. SF didn't want to wear that cammo that was worn by LRRPs and Marines. Just my theories.

 

We know it was preferred by LRRP ands the later Rangers. I have well over 200 pics of LRRP-Rangers wearing ERDL.

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And my favorite

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One showing Korean cammo being worn. I have a better one but this shows ERDL also

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Written contributor to French Militaria Magazine, UK World War II Re-enactors Magazine &The Karkee Web Research Team.

Remembering the service of:
9095 Pte Alfred Fredrick NEWLAND, 7th Field Ambulance, 2 Division, AIF. WIA 16/11/16 France.
436 Private Albert McCANN, B Company 8th Battalion AIF. Enlisted 26/8/14. Killed in Action 17/6/15 Gallipoli.
VX24056 Gunner George Edward McCANN, 2/3 Composite Anti Aircraft Regiment. Enlisted 7/6/40. Discharged 3/8/44. Served in Australia and New Guinea.



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Mr-X, what I meant was that ERDL had worked its way into the Special Forces supplies, not the US Army in general.

Mike,

I know what ment and I'm sorry but I disagree with it.

What I am saying is that special forces got their pick of what they wanted and first.

By 1970 pretty much all Marine combat troops had ERDL. If SF had of wanted that, then that would have been the case.

 

I'm just saying that I think there is another reason rather then just late supply of ERDL for its lack of use by SF in general and MACV-SOG in particular.

I mean the Air Force seems to have been entirely equipped with the stuff. How many ERDLs do you see with Air Force patches? a Bloody lot!

 

I mean if you were a proud Special Forces soldier would you want to wear the same cammo as the Air Force. Or would you rather have your own unique cammo. Tigers or Spray painted jungle fatigues.

Written contributor to French Militaria Magazine, UK World War II Re-enactors Magazine &The Karkee Web Research Team.

Remembering the service of:
9095 Pte Alfred Fredrick NEWLAND, 7th Field Ambulance, 2 Division, AIF. WIA 16/11/16 France.
436 Private Albert McCANN, B Company 8th Battalion AIF. Enlisted 26/8/14. Killed in Action 17/6/15 Gallipoli.
VX24056 Gunner George Edward McCANN, 2/3 Composite Anti Aircraft Regiment. Enlisted 7/6/40. Discharged 3/8/44. Served in Australia and New Guinea.



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Concerning USAF Security Police units, they were issued ERDL uniforms as soon as they were available, around 1967/68. Each SP member was issued two OD sets and two ERDL sets, and he could wear whichever he wanted. Some preferred camo uniforms because they wanted to appear as fighters, others favored OD uniforms because it wouldn't attract the snipers' attention, and ERDL was useless on air bases anyway.

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OK let's add to the Bowra controversy. Here is a pic of him at Long Hai in 1972, with a FANK battalion; he is wearing a non-modified ERDL jacket. Look at the Cambodians, they have a very basic equipment; no stabos or CAR-15s. It doesn't prove anything but leads me to believe that the photo with a modified ERDL jacket was taken in a RT.

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Thanks for the ID Mike.

I thought they must have been an RT.

I had doubts that they would have been FANK with stabo rigs on.

Written contributor to French Militaria Magazine, UK World War II Re-enactors Magazine &The Karkee Web Research Team.

Remembering the service of:
9095 Pte Alfred Fredrick NEWLAND, 7th Field Ambulance, 2 Division, AIF. WIA 16/11/16 France.
436 Private Albert McCANN, B Company 8th Battalion AIF. Enlisted 26/8/14. Killed in Action 17/6/15 Gallipoli.
VX24056 Gunner George Edward McCANN, 2/3 Composite Anti Aircraft Regiment. Enlisted 7/6/40. Discharged 3/8/44. Served in Australia and New Guinea.



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