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Vietnam camo SOG or SF jacket


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Spike, whats the point with the fact that I am a self-confessed fussy fcuk who dont buy jackets and shirts with removed name tape ?

It has nothing to do with that provenance thing but just that I like to have them in the same condition that the troops wore them in-country. Now, I have seen the pics in Stanton's book and I know that many jackets were worn with missing or removed name tape.

Thats just I hate to see a nice fully patched up jacket with loose threads at the place of the name, thats it.

 

BTW, Jerome's jacket come from the Good Ole USA via eBay and was bought from one of the very few specialized bonafide militaria dealer.

 

No, we dont find SOG stuff in yard sales or thrift stores in France. But equivalent rare items like French SAS or French SS have been found in odd conditions for sometimes peanuts.

So why not a SOG jacket in an american ragmill or thrift store or even sold by the family who dont give a damn about an old piece of green jacket that had belonged to daddy ?

"One law for them, another one for us !"

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About SP4... my all time favorite uniforms are two 25th ID SP4 jungle jackets that Gil Burket sold me years ago for something like $25 each. With all insignias and NAME TAPES in-country made.

"One law for them, another one for us !"

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You seem pretty agitated Andrei.....the point IS the fact that you want things with name tapes, THAT is the provenance for you, for some it's coming from the vet themselves. I know you like things a certain way and I respect that totally but I certainly would never turn down a UDT or SEAL shirt that I knew was 100% legit just because the name tape is removed. But that ain't the point. Your friends SOG shirt was put into question and it bothered you and some others. If you guys are cool with it then that's all that matters, who cares what others think, especially a cheap bottom feeder like me. But if some guys don't trust it that's the way it is. I don't trust 95% of the stuff out there these days, I trusted about 50% of the stuff during the 80's. Sorry you took offence but that's kinda the way it goes on these boards, not everyone agrees on things.

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It reminds me of the old saying, that I will update a little here.

"Buy the item not the story" (or no story if thats that case).

Buy the item for the item. If you like it then thats enough.

 

I also do not like buying items without a name tag. I think a lot of times its a sign of being a fake. I mean its pretty hard to research a uniform without a name. However on fatigue uniforms and sometimes jungle uniforms that do not have name tags there are laundry numbers that can also indicate ownership.

 

And of course, as was rightly pointed out, in the field due to laundry practices sometimes name tapes and ranks were not worn.

 

Provenance is the key. From the Vet is best but there are other ways too. I would rather have some very boring uniforms with provenance, than sexy one with out it. But that is just me. Lets face it any one can sew a patch or a pocket.

 

Bottom line, If it has positive provenance it is worth more. Simple as that.

Written contributor to French Militaria Magazine, UK World War II Re-enactors Magazine &The Karkee Web Research Team.

Remembering the service of:
9095 Pte Alfred Fredrick NEWLAND, 7th Field Ambulance, 2 Division, AIF. WIA 16/11/16 France.
436 Private Albert McCANN, B Company 8th Battalion AIF. Enlisted 26/8/14. Killed in Action 17/6/15 Gallipoli.
VX24056 Gunner George Edward McCANN, 2/3 Composite Anti Aircraft Regiment. Enlisted 7/6/40. Discharged 3/8/44. Served in Australia and New Guinea.



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Andrei, it is good to see you post a nice long reply. We now know what you think and that is good.

I have to agree with Mr.-X. We all have our own reasons and criteria for collecting. At the end of the day, each one of us has to be happy with what we collect, not our buddy. If Spike needs provenance for an item or Andrei needs to have the name tape, that is for each of them to decide. For rare items, I need provenance for it to be part of my collection. For more common items, it isn't as important, but I would be happier if I knew who the item belonged to. This is why I have made no comment about the authenticity of any of the jackets shown, just my views on how rare they are and the odds of finding one.

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Mike is absolutely correct and a gentleman for sharing his knowledge. The probability of finding these just sitting around at a flea market or even on Ebay is next to zero.

 

Vietnam "artifacts" offer the collector a rare opportunity to have item with solid provenance. Once you get away from that provenance and the item loses its historical ties, than it is nothing more than "vintage threads". While those "threads" can still be attractive, they don't hold the same value (and I DON'T mean value in dollars).

 

Now, as with the rank and BOS insignia "under the collar" snafu, I just wonder who in the states is selling all these "extremely rare" jackets to our overseas collectors? hmmmmm

 

 

Andrei, I don't think you understand the extreme rarity of an "over the fence" jacket. Jason Hardy, who has the most complete SOG collection in the world, has only ten of these jackets. He says he knows of another six authentic jackets in other collections. This total of sixteen jackets from actual SOG veterans is all that can be shown to be 100% authentic at this time.

The odds of finding a SOG jacket in a yard sale or thrift store are astronomical. If a "cross border jacket" is found at a yard sale or thrift store, it is most likely that the previous owner was either a reenacter or paintball fan. And have you noticed that people that find these jackets at yard sales never bother to find out who the jacket belonged to? And if the family of this man is selling his jacket at their yard sale, where is the rest of the man's items? Where is his SOG plaque, knife, regular uniforms, boots, patches etc. When buying at these yard sales, make sure there is not a paintball gun somewhere else on the table.

And speaking of provenance, that is what Viet Nam collecting will be about in the next ten years! With little uniformity in how insignia was worn in Viet Nam, applying insignia to a uniform, wearing it to reenact for six months, and then presenting it as a rare uniform is quite easy to do. The reason no one questions a SP/4 jacket bought for a few dollars is that no one cares about a SP/4 jacket. When collectors care about SP/4 jackets, the jackets will be faked.

 

 

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Mike is absolutely correct and a gentleman for sharing his knowledge. The probability of finding these just sitting around at a flea market or even on Ebay is next to zero.

 

Vietnam "artifacts" offer the collector a rare opportunity to have item with solid provenance. Once you get away from that provenance and the item loses its historical ties, than it is nothing more than "vintage threads". While those "threads" can still be attractive, they don't hold the same value (and I DON'T mean value in dollars).

 

Now, as with the rank and BOS insignia "under the collar" snafu, I just wonder who in the states is selling all these "extremely rare" jackets to our overseas collectors? hmmmmm

 

Dear Sir

 

In france we ve got a lots of second hand clothing shops with principaly some

American used clothes you can imagine how much good pieces i can find in this shops

US WW1 US WW2 .INDOCHINA WAR .VIETNAM ETC very low price (INDIGINOUS SHIRT 5 eur BDQ shirt 4 eur etc)

And i find very good pieces on ebay for low price to (S.F tour jacket, M.F zippo etc you can see pics in my other topic)

Maybe have got luck with me

 

Cheers JEROME

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Jerome

 

For this thread and some of the old threads that I refer to, the owner(s) mention that they came from the USA. So, I was wondering about these sources.

 

I believe you can find great stuff in shops and rag mills, I'm just not sure you will find any SOG jackets. The possibility is there, YES, but the probability is very very low, in my opinion.

 

Jerome, I'm sure we are competitors on Ebay.

 

Steve

 

 

Dear Sir

 

In france we ve got a lots of second hand clothing shops with principaly some

American used clothes you can imagine how much good pieces i can find in this shops

US WW1 US WW2 .INDOCHINA WAR .VIETNAM ETC very low price (INDIGINOUS SHIRT 5 eur BDQ shirt 4 eur etc)

And i find very good pieces on ebay (S.F tour jacket, M.F zippo etc you can see pics in my other topic)

Maybe have got luck with me

 

Cheers JEROME

 

 

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Jerome

 

For this thread and some of the old threads that I refer to, the owner(s) mention that they came from the USA. So, I was wondering about these sources.

 

I believe you can find great stuff in shops and rag mills, I'm just not sure you will find any SOG jackets. The possibility is there, YES, but the probability is very very low, in my opinion.

 

Jerome, I'm sure we are competitors on Ebay.

 

Steve

 

 

Dear Steve

Send me your direct mail adress and i send you more details photos of my jacket

 

Cheers Jerome

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Jerome

 

 

Blindbat Militaria

PO Box 352

Edgewood, MD 21040

 

 

It's really not necessary to send better photos. As long as you are happy with it, that's all that matters!

 

I like it. I can even see that the white zippers were darkened and now faded. I wish I had one as nice. But the provenance issue comes back again. It just sure would be nice if you had the owner's name.

 

 

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Jerome

Blindbat Militaria

PO Box 352

Edgewood, MD 21040

It's really not necessary to send better photos. As long as you are happy with it, that's all that matters!

 

I like it. I can even see that the white zippers were darkened and now faded. I wish I had one as nice. But the provenance issue comes back again. It just sure would be nice if you had the owner's name.

 

 

Sorry your email address

 

Cheers JEROME

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M60 Driver

 

No worries. We are here to discuss!

 

"Over the fence" jacket: A combat jacket worn under combat gear by those performing recon missions over the borders into Laos and Cambodia, where US forces were not allowed (denied areas) due to agreements between our gov't and the governing bodies controlling those countries. They were usually modified for special purposes by the men wearing them (generally this included extra pockets in unusual places or other modifications). They were usually stripped of all tags, etc. that associated them with the U.S. forces.

 

Steve

 

 

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MACV-SOG CCN LT Ken Bowra wearing an ERDL shirt with lower pockets removed and attached to upper arms. Notice the Shirt is tucked in. Most modified shirts that I have notice in period pictures are worn with bottom pockets removed and tucked in to trousers. Unlike the one you pictured.

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Hello,

 

As I read, SOG still remains sources of controversies, for myself, I do care about the provenance of my collection items, I do care of the presence of the nametag, but right here in France we can not attend to SF Vet reunion to ask them to sell their Vietnam remaining uniforms for collection or to sell in the Militaria Stores. And as far as I know, not all of the items sold in the US Dealer website come with papers, certificate but prices still remain high (and of course we must trust in their reputation when we buy it) .

 

But some of you seem to forget that in France, we are near Germany (and their US bases where some Vietnam vets used to live after 75, where trashed uniforms where dumbed to thrift stores and sold every where in Europe. Sometime, we can still find Tiger Stripe uniforms (Jerome had very lucky finds...)

 

I think all the people here agree that SOG jacket can be with 4 pockets (even with a sleeves pockets), and can be made in ERDL camo. Are there any more pictures except Ken Bowra s showing SOG or SF wearing the ERDL modified jacket ?

 

I join here a bonnie hat that I bought months ago with some Novelty beercans, could you tell whether these beercans are legit and also the bonnie (they all have 2 clutches) ? and of course I have unfortunately no info about its last owner.

 

Cheers

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Very interesting thread.

 

Mike, when you mentioned earlier how Jason owns 10 "over the fence" jackets and he knows of 6 others in collections, are you specifically referring to SOG jackets with modified pocket configurations, or does this total include all verified uniforms that have ventured over the fence?

 

I personally think the 1st pattern jacket with zippered map pockets looks fine, but like many people have said already, SOG was not the only unit to wear unorthodox uniforms. The only way you could truly call it an "over the fence" jacket is if there is provenance linking it directly to a SOG vet that wore it on cross-border operations. If only the jacket could talk...

 

---Chris

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There is plenty of great Vietnam stuff to be had on ebay as long as you have the time to sift through all of the crap. Sadly, I do not have that kind of time these days. I've found some real sleepers in the past though.

 

---Chris

 

Hi Chris

 

you know Chris for my beogam patrol cap with 4 cromets i just pay 280 dollars on ebay

Maybe i can buy some real good stuff at low price because some collector don t

know or don t trust ebay item but it s good for me, i research on ebay just 2 hours by day

 

Cheers Jerome

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Chris, the ten or so "over the fence" jackets/uniforms owned by Jason are the actual ones that belonged to SOG veterans that were used to do cross border operations. I was present when he acquired one of these uniforms from a SOG vet who had a photograph of himself wearing the same uniform.

The photograph of Bowra wearing ERDL is not when he was with RT Idaho. I have many images of him in RT Idaho and he is only wearing OD jungle jackets. Some of his OD jackets had been modified. After leaving RT Idaho, he went to Cambodia to help with training and I am pretty sure that is when these photographs were taken. I think this because none of the indigenous soldiers around him are from RT Idaho. He only ran a few missions with RT Idaho before transferring to Cambodia, so the picture of him with the indig is not another version of RT Idaho. By this time (1973-74) ERDL had worked its way into the system to become more available to SF. I have few photographs of SF, and especially SOG, men wearing ERDL prior to 1972.

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By the way, I agree with Steve that this is not a fight or ego blast. The only thing that bothers me about these forums (and one of the reasons that I participate in few of them) are individuals that will not answer questions forthrightly and the ones who try to pit one member against another. If someone disagrees with me, that is fine, but I would like to have specific reasons as to why. And of course I will reply as to why I think the way I do.

I hope the French members don't think we are "ganging up" on them. We do have an advantage by being American and having more direct contact with Viet Nam veterans. However, the French members have some great items and, I would say at this time, are very advanced in Viet Nam collecting.

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I have deleted a post by member Jerry K that because on this forum we confine comments to the virtues of the militaria, not the collectors. I also deleted the followups that referenced this improper post but one of them included the following quote from HBT, which we left up for the sake of continuity:

 

There is plenty of great Vietnam stuff to be had on ebay as long as you have the time to sift through all of the crap. Sadly, I do not have that kind of time these days. I've found some real sleepers in the past though.


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