Jump to content

Vietnam camo SOG or SF jacket


Recommended Posts

Hello,

 

I ve just got this jacket through the friend that broght back from the US from the early 90s. He got it in Tacoma directly from the neigbour of his girlfriend's relatives including: this jacket, the modified green and paint sprayed jungle fatigues (1st aid pocket in the back under the collar, lower pockets removed and sewn on the sleeves) and the STABO harness tell me whether USSF or SOG and all for FREE, unfortunately, he didn't have the vet s name. Since I have no doubt about the authenticity, I'd like to have your opinion. The jacket is modified by adding 2 pockets on the sleeves (the pockets from a Brown ERDL shirt) and the little pocket and the cord for the pen flare (near left chest pocket). Can someone help me:

- To know if USSF or SOG use ERDL camo shirt during the Vietnam war era ? my jacket is from 1968 and with all its tags

- To show any modified camo jacket (even after the Vietnam war) like it

 

There is no marking or patches ever sewn on this jacket

 

All your opinions are welcomed.

 

Thanks

post-1523-1201041726.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 190
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Corpan,

Here are some pictures that were used on another forum several years ago showing the modified shirts. I have not seen pics of the ERDL jacket being modified, but if they modified the jungle jackets, then they probably modifed the ERDL as well. Hope this helps.

Arch

VIET.jpg

VIET2.jpg

Always looking for US and foreign militaria from the Central American wars circa 1970-1990

donation2017.gif

donation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

donation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

Two more pics. When I get home, I'll try and photograph some of my modified camo jackets. I have been meaning to start a thread about modified jackets for quite some time, but have not got around to it.

Arch

viet3.jpg

viet4.jpg

Always looking for US and foreign militaria from the Central American wars circa 1970-1990

donation2017.gif

donation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

donation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

Generally when you see these modified jackets, the lower pockets are removed and re-attached on the arms. For yours, it seems that the arm pockets are added from another jacket. That's unusual although within the realm of possibility.

 

Is your jacket rip-stop? I can't tell from the photo.

 

 

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif
donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello,

 

My jacket is in Rip Stop material, all the additionnal pockets are in ERDL Brown while the jacket is in ERDL Green Lime. I suppose the owner strip his brown jacket to add to his lime one, Brown ERDL was not very favoured during VN war I suppose.

 

Cheers

 

 

Generally when you see these modified jackets, the lower pockets are removed and re-attached on the arms. For yours, it seems that the arm pockets are added from another jacket. That's unusual although within the realm of possibility.

 

Is your jacket rip-stop? I can't tell from the photo.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello All,

 

If you have a Stanton book: US Army Uniforms of the Vietnam War, you can see at the page 222 apicture of Lt Ken Bowra wearing an ERDL camo shirt with pockets added to the sleeves. The lower pockets were removed.

 

Cheers

Link to post
Share on other sites

Arch ...

 

Quick question for you ... What type is the Gas mask in the second photo ?

 

RJ

 

Corpan,

Here are some pictures that were used on another forum several years ago showing the modified shirts. I have not seen pics of the ERDL jacket being modified, but if they modified the jungle jackets, then they probably modifed the ERDL as well. Hope this helps.

Arch

Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve is correct, most jungle jackets modified for "over the fence" use the bottom pockets for the upper sleeves or upper sleeve pockets made by local tailors. The lower pockets were removed because once the web gear was put on, these bottom pockets became useless. However, I do have an "over the fence" jacket from a SOG veteran of Operation Tailwind that has both the sleeve pockets and bottom pockets. Of the thousands of photographs I have seen from SOG veterans, I do not recall seeing any with ERDL modified jackets. The photo of Bowra may have been taken when he was assigned to training in Cambodia after his short stay with RT Idaho.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Steve is correct, most jungle jackets modified for "over the fence" use the bottom pockets for the upper sleeves or upper sleeve pockets made by local tailors. The lower pockets were removed because once the web gear was put on, these bottom pockets became useless. However, I do have an "over the fence" jacket from a SOG veteran of Operation Tailwind that has both the sleeve pockets and bottom pockets. Of the thousands of photographs I have seen from SOG veterans, I do not recall seeing any with ERDL modified jackets. The photo of Bowra may have been taken when he was assigned to training in Cambodia after his short stay with RT Idaho.

 

 

Dear Mr tucker

 

What do you think about this one ??

The SF ssi ,name tape , us army tape, jump wings , cib , epaulettes has removed

The white band of zip are collored with blac ink , the zipper is YKK chainettes navettes

Cheers Jerome

post-1486-1201443056.jpg

donation2008.gifdonation2009.gif
Link to post
Share on other sites

Jerome, my only comment about the jacket is that I would not even entertain the idea of owning an "over the fence" jacket unless I obtained it directly from the SOG veteran or had undeniable proof of who it belonged to. I am not saying that your jacket is not authentic, but only you know where it came from. These jackets are extremely rare and few SOG veterans returned from Viet Nam with them. In other words, the number of authentic "Over the fence" jackets in collector's hands are few.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Jerome, my only comment about the jacket is that I would not even entertain the idea of owning an "over the fence" jacket unless I obtained it directly from the SOG veteran or had undeniable proof of who it belonged to. I am not saying that your jacket is not authentic, but only you know where it came from. These jackets are extremely rare and few SOG veterans returned from Viet Nam with them. In other words, the number of authentic "Over the fence" jackets in collector's hands are few.

 

I agree 100 per cent. I try to make sure that all the uniforms in my collection have provenance. Unless you have provenance, you can only assume that it is an example of what one may have looked like and not the actual example.

 

A shirt very similar to yours is pictured in Plaster's book "SOG: A Photo History of the Secret Wars" on page 210. It is quite possible that someone has used that picture as some inspiration to modify a Jungle Shirt. Or yours may just be original. the point is you'll never know.

 

uniforms.jpg

Written contributor to French Militaria Magazine, UK World War II Re-enactors Magazine &The Karkee Web Research Team.

Remembering the service of:
9095 Pte Alfred Fredrick NEWLAND, 7th Field Ambulance, 2 Division, AIF. WIA 16/11/16 France.
436 Private Albert McCANN, B Company 8th Battalion AIF. Enlisted 26/8/14. Killed in Action 17/6/15 Gallipoli.
VX24056 Gunner George Edward McCANN, 2/3 Composite Anti Aircraft Regiment. Enlisted 7/6/40. Discharged 3/8/44. Served in Australia and New Guinea.



donation2016.gif

donation2013.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2010.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2008.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hello,

 

I ve just got this jacket through the friend that broght back from the US from the early 90s. He got it in Tacoma directly from the neigbour of his girlfriend's relatives including: this jacket, the modified green and paint sprayed jungle fatigues (1st aid pocket in the back under the collar, lower pockets removed and sewn on the sleeves) and the STABO harness tell me whether USSF or SOG and all for FREE, unfortunately, he didn't have the vet s name. Since I have no doubt about the authenticity, I'd like to have your opinion. The jacket is modified by adding 2 pockets on the sleeves (the pockets from a Brown ERDL shirt) and the little pocket and the cord for the pen flare (near left chest pocket). Can someone help me:

- To know if USSF or SOG use ERDL camo shirt during the Vietnam war era ? my jacket is from 1968 and with all its tags

- To show any modified camo jacket (even after the Vietnam war) like it

 

There is no marking or patches ever sewn on this jacket

 

All your opinions are welcomed.

 

Thanks

 

MACV-SOG CCN LT Ken Bowra wearing an ERDL shirt with lower pockets removed and attached to upper arms. Notice the Shirt is tucked in. Most modified shirts that I have notice in period pictures are worn with bottom pockets removed and tucked in to trousers. Unlike the one you pictured.

vip-bow02bb.jpg

Written contributor to French Militaria Magazine, UK World War II Re-enactors Magazine &The Karkee Web Research Team.

Remembering the service of:
9095 Pte Alfred Fredrick NEWLAND, 7th Field Ambulance, 2 Division, AIF. WIA 16/11/16 France.
436 Private Albert McCANN, B Company 8th Battalion AIF. Enlisted 26/8/14. Killed in Action 17/6/15 Gallipoli.
VX24056 Gunner George Edward McCANN, 2/3 Composite Anti Aircraft Regiment. Enlisted 7/6/40. Discharged 3/8/44. Served in Australia and New Guinea.



donation2016.gif

donation2013.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2010.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2008.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

Provenance ? What about a shirt that looks 100% genuine you picked up at a yard sale or thrift store for a couple of bucks ?

None will question a SP4 jungle jacket bought at a your local thrift but as soon as it is a hot piece, you have to show the pic of the vet wearing it, a letter of authentification by him and hand written to boot, blah blah, etc...

Collecting is also a matter of luck and being at the right place at the right time.

Even on eBay you can find treasures listed in other places than the militaria section.

 

I have seen Jerome's collection many times and I can tell you that his modified type 1 is 100% genuine.

"One law for them, another one for us !"

donation2017.gif

 

 

donation2016.gif

donation2015.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2012.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2007.gif

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Andrei, I don't think you understand the extreme rarity of an "over the fence" jacket. Jason Hardy, who has the most complete SOG collection in the world, has only ten of these jackets. He says he knows of another six authentic jackets in other collections. This total of sixteen jackets from actual SOG veterans is all that can be shown to be 100% authentic at this time.

The odds of finding a SOG jacket in a yard sale or thrift store are astronomical. If a "cross border jacket" is found at a yard sale or thrift store, it is most likely that the previous owner was either a reenacter or paintball fan. And have you noticed that people that find these jackets at yard sales never bother to find out who the jacket belonged to? And if the family of this man is selling his jacket at their yard sale, where is the rest of the man's items? Where is his SOG plaque, knife, regular uniforms, boots, patches etc. When buying at these yard sales, make sure there is not a paintball gun somewhere else on the table.

And speaking of provenance, that is what Viet Nam collecting will be about in the next ten years! With little uniformity in how insignia was worn in Viet Nam, applying insignia to a uniform, wearing it to reenact for six months, and then presenting it as a rare uniform is quite easy to do. The reason no one questions a SP/4 jacket bought for a few dollars is that no one cares about a SP/4 jacket. When collectors care about SP/4 jackets, the jackets will be faked.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrei, I don't think you understand the extreme rarity of an "over the fence" jacket. Jason Hardy, who has the most complete SOG collection in the world, has only ten of these jackets. He says he knows of another six authentic jackets in other collections. This total of sixteen jackets from actual SOG veterans is all that can be shown to be 100% authentic at this time.

The odds of finding a SOG jacket in a yard sale or thrift store are astronomical. If a "cross border jacket" is found at a yard sale or thrift store, it is most likely that the previous owner was either a reenacter or paintball fan. And have you noticed that people that find these jackets at yard sales never bother to find out who the jacket belonged to? And if the family of this man is selling his jacket at their yard sale, where is the rest of the man's items? Where is his SOG plaque, knife, regular uniforms, boots, patches etc. When buying at these yard sales, make sure there is not a paintball gun somewhere else on the table.

And speaking of provenance, that is what Viet Nam collecting will be about in the next ten years! With little uniformity in how insignia was worn in Viet Nam, applying insignia to a uniform, wearing it to reenact for six months, and then presenting it as a rare uniform is quite easy to do. The reason no one questions a SP/4 jacket bought for a few dollars is that no one cares about a SP/4 jacket. When collectors care about SP/4 jackets, the jackets will be faked.

 

Bonjour Mike,

 

First I think that Andrei could easily understand the extreme rarity of this type of jacket. His VN collection is one of the most amazing that I've seen in Europe and in America and has a double approach of the conflict: historian and collector. ;)

His right to say that luck makes a great part of our hobby. Stories are numerous of tresures found in thrift shops, flea markets or unseen by theothers on eBAY (or not clearly descripted).

I've seen myself Jerome's jungle jacket and fewt details are interesting to know:

-got it few bucks before Plaster's and Greco's books published and of course the reenactors fashion

- type 1 were and are still highlydesirable for younger VN collector and this kind of modifications deserve than serve an non-expert eye in a "make bucks logic"

- zippers are period ones

- removed SSI shows the SF shadow

- present an high discoloration behind pockets and modifications.

Sure, the former owner of this jacket 'll remain unknown, sure nobody can say that the jacket is gone over the fence but it really seems to be period modified like some SOG team members.

Perhaps now, Jason could say know that he knows seven authentic jackets in other collections ;)

Cheers

Valery

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gif

donation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

Before this one gets a little to heated, I thought I would add a couple of comments. Both Andrei and Mike are friends of mine, but sometimes when you type something in comes across more harshly then if you were speaking to each other in person.

My first is, none of us were in SOG so it is very hard to say what they did or didn't do. While the ERDL uniform that is posted does raise questions, it doesn't mean that 100% nobody would have done this.

The comments about SOG wearing this type jacket with the lower pockets removed, they weren't the only ones. I have had them to Marines and various other army units. Some did it for operations and others just did it for preference.

Also on Jerome's jacket, I have no doubt this was done and the photo proof that is shown, but why the white zippers? If you are making or having a jacket made for cross border ops, it is hard to believe that glaring white zippers would have been used. Is that to say they weren't used this way? No, it may have been the only zippers available to the person doing the sewing. It is hard to condem a person's piece in their collection, esp. on something as rare as this, if we weren't the ones who wore it or had it made.

While I also agree with Mike on provenance is everything nowadays that hasn't always been true. I can remember in the mid 1980's, and going to the Great Western Gun Show, nobody cared about who the piece belonged to, they just bought the item for what it was. In particular, I can still remember one dealer from the fayetteville area that used to bring out tables of SF / SOG items. He had binders of real SOG patches, piles of berets, scarves, SOG plaques, SOG knives, etc. In the cas eof the patches, some were the made for collector types / Cheap Charlies while the rest were whacked off of uniforms. The prices were the same. Because of this we all bought the minty unused items, as they looked nicer. When this dealer was selling these items, none of us asked for the names of who they belonged to, it was obvious there was not a question in mind that it was all original. He also had berets with emb,. liners they were priced at a unheard of $100.00 to $150.00 each. Does it make these items less valuable now becuase we didn't get names to attribute to these pieces ? No, they are still just as rare and valuable.

On the subject of Jason's collection. I consider Jason one of very very close and personal friends, but back before he became so focused on SOG history, a lot of odd type uniforms would surface and a lot of people didn't know what they had. In the mid 1980's through the 1990's we were going through 1000's of pounds of military uniforms a week in rag mills. If something like the jackets with zippers came through we would probably look at it twice but just go right past it and leave it in the piles. We didn't know what these were, in our minds probably some hunter made it. Heck, the first 1-0 jacket we had, we thought it was a party type jacket. Who would wear a black shiny nylon jacket with embroidery on it for anything other then going out drinking? When Jason started showing us all these great photos years later it became obvious what some of the items we passed on were. The research he and Mike have done is a tremendous help to the collector / historian, but it is hard to say a certain piece of customized uniform was only worn by a specific group. There is a famous photo that shows a US Air Force SP guarding a military dump, and he is wearing one of the camo SOG vests. He probably saw one being worn and either traded for it and had one made. The subject of collecting Vietnam items has always been one of our favorites, because of the above. There was no "set in stone" rules for uniforms, so it always made Vietnam collecting more fun and to always make sure we kept our minds open when we looked at odd pieces.

Lastly, Mike, some of my most favorite unfiroms I have ever owned belonged to Spec fours and not SOG guys. See you at SOS next month.

Bob

www.vintageproductions.com


"A militaria show is a social event for anti-socials" - A.T. 2008


ASMIC Executive President

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

 


Link to post
Share on other sites

Andrei, thank you for the flippant reply. I image you find a lot of SOG material at French yard sales.

 

Bob, I agree with you that many SOG items have turned up over the years without knowing who they belong to and you have been one to find many of these great items. However, in 2008 I would be very skeptical. Although I was in the Army at that time, I was not in SOG, but having talked with these men myself, I think that it is as close as one can get. It is certainly better than speculating about what these men did or did not do.

 

Having asked SOG veterans why they did not bring back their "cross border" jackets, most replied that they did not think much of them. They had no "sex". This helps explain why plaques, knives, and patches are found more often than field gear and uniforms.

 

Jerome, I am sure you have a great Viet Nam collection and I made no comment about your modified jacket being authentic or not. I base my opinions, and that is what they are, from the SOG veterans I have personally spoken with and the many thousands of photographs I have seen from these men.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as pockets sewn on sleeves, I have video footage of a squad of SEALs in 1970 and one of the AW guys, who happened later to have won a fairly famous medal during another tour, has a short sleeve ERDL shirt with the bottom pockets sewn on the sleeves. I have also seen ERDL jungle pants pockets sewn on Levi's too. I thought the pictured modded 1st model jacket looked good but who knows. I too have seen Jason's collection, or at least part of it and it truly blew my mind the stuff he has and it's pretty much all documented. Look on eBay and you'll see "hitmark" outta Hong Kong selling faked up SOG style jackets, hell, he has them any style ya want, black, ERDL, poplin. Anybody with a sewing machine and some skill can fake up anything, it's easy. Andrei, I know for a fact you won't buy uniforms UNLESS it has a name tape on it, I have heard you have turned down some great uniforms because the name tape was missing so don't get too defensive if some here don't quite think something is chicken soup(kosher). Not raggin' on ya Andrei, just saying. Unfortunenately, because of eBay and the crap coming outta VN today you almost have to get it from a vet or from someone who you trust, especially SOG/SF/SEAL uniforms.

" If my answers frighten you stop asking scary questions"

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.