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FSSF Grouping (with Canadian jump wings) - real?

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I saw this First Special Service Force grouping for sale today but couldn't afford the asking price. Does anyone know if the crossed arrows are authentic? The shoulder cord looks different than the ones I've seen before.

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From memory the crossed arrows look good. thumbsup.gif I'll have a look at mine and get back to you.

 

I saw this First Special Service Force grouping for sale today but couldn't afford the asking price. Does anyone know if the crossed arrows are authentic? The shoulder cord looks different than the ones I've seen before.

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Where is it being offered? Thanks.


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Collecting WWII Armor and Tank Destroyer Items

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Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?


Looking for WWII American Combat Gear, Combat Uniforms, and Patches

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A wing exchange? Fewer regulations back then.

 

Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?

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Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?

 

If he was Canadian and was jump qualed with the Force he may have returned to a Canadian Para unit after the Force broke up.I know a vet whos Canadian battle dress has a set of the Para wings on it and he sports a Force patch sewn on right cuff.

 

RON


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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I personally do not like the shoulder cord.I have seen several in the hands of veterans and I own a couple from vets that I purchased myself and have never seen them wear this style.This cord reminds me of the red/white/blue cord you see on the early Civilian Military Training Camp campaign hats.

 

The arrows look ok but would have to see them first hand.The patches look fine.Both Versions of the ATF9 (KISKA) patch.The ones I have from Force vets tend to be the printed ones.

 

RON


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Where is it being offered? Thanks.

 

It was being offered for sale at an insignia show at Napredak Hall in San Jose, California. I don't know if it sold or not as I left early to watch football last Sunday.


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Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?

 

This supposedly came from one person although I think the US made FSSF shoulder sleeve patch was added as there was a smudge of glue on the back. The seller told me that someone found this grouping for him but kept an Italian hand made FSSF patch. The seller had the name of the vet but couldn't find it when I asked for it.


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The cord actually looks more like a World War one Prussian cord than anything else. I have one on a schnaps flask that looks the same. The insignia looks Ok but for this you really need to have it in hand to know for sure.

 

 

Gary


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"YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MUCH RED WINE, TOO MANY BOOKS, OR TOO MUCH AMMUNITION."

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Thanks for everyone's input. I've attached copies of the photographs that were part of this grouping which did not come out very well due to the lighting inside of the building.

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Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?

 

The FSSF wore US uniforms. I believe if a Canadian was jump qualified prior to joining the FSSF he could wear the Canadian wings.

 

Ray


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I do not like the cord. Does not look like my original nor any in photos. This one is a simple twist were the real ones are braided.

 

Ray


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The FSSF wore US uniforms. I believe if a Canadian was jump qualified prior to joining the FSSF he could wear the Canadian wings.

 

Ray

 

I agree with the fact that they could wear the wings, but its the US collar tabs I'm curious about. Collar badges with "Canada" were produced and worn by Canadians wearing the American uniforms.

Check out these drawings of approved Canadian uniforms:

Officer: http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-...ficerjacket.png

EM: http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-...ssfemjacket.png


Looking for WWII American Combat Gear, Combat Uniforms, and Patches

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Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?

 

This pic might help to answer that question.

 

This is a Canadian officer with both wings. So it might have gone both ways.

 

MVC-0hh09S.jpg


Written contributor to French Militaria Magazine, UK World War II Re-enactors Magazine &The Karkee Web Research Team.

Remembering the service of:
9095 Pte Alfred Fredrick NEWLAND, 7th Field Ambulance, 2 Division, AIF. WIA 16/11/16 France.
436 Private Albert McCANN, B Company 8th Battalion AIF. Enlisted 26/8/14. Killed in Action 17/6/15 Gallipoli.
VX24056 Gunner George Edward McCANN, 2/3 Composite Anti Aircraft Regiment. Enlisted 7/6/40. Discharged 3/8/44. Served in Australia and New Guinea.



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This pic might help to answer that question.

 

This is a Canadian officer with both wings. So it might have gone both ways.

 

Outside a couple members of the cadre, the US troopers who were assigned to the FSSF came in without being jump qualified, so would not have had wings prior to earning them in Montana. The Canadian troops who came to the Force were already jump qualified. The Canadians would have either earned British jump wings by completing the school in England, or would have been in the group of Canadian parachutists who completed jump training at Fort Benning and were awarded Canadian jump wings. There would have been no opportunity for any of the Americans in the FSSF to have earned Canadian wings. SUre, it is possible that the veteran (if this is a legitimate group) acquired a Canadian wing from a Canadian Forceman, but he would not have been able to wear the brevet with his US wing. As has been mentioned previously, if the former owner was Canadian, then you would have seen matched "Canada" insignias rather than the US devices in the frame.

I am not convinced that the Canadian brevet is a World War II era brevet. It appears to me to have been cut down from a larger background. That is usually done to get rid of the tell-tale hump at the bottom of a post-war pattern Canadian jump wing.

Allan


Never under-estimate the power of prayer.

 

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Outside a couple members of the cadre, the US troopers who were assigned to the FSSF came in without being jump qualified, so would not have had wings prior to earning them in Montana. The Canadian troops who came to the Force were already jump qualified. The Canadians would have either earned British jump wings by completing the school in England, or would have been in the group of Canadian parachutists who completed jump training at Fort Benning and were awarded Canadian jump wings. There would have been no opportunity for any of the Americans in the FSSF to have earned Canadian wings. SUre, it is possible that the veteran (if this is a legitimate group) acquired a Canadian wing from a Canadian Forceman, but he would not have been able to wear the brevet with his US wing. As has been mentioned previously, if the former owner was Canadian, then you would have seen matched "Canada" insignias rather than the US devices in the frame.

I am not convinced that the Canadian brevet is a World War II era brevet. It appears to me to have been cut down from a larger background. That is usually done to get rid of the tell-tale hump at the bottom of a post-war pattern Canadian jump wing.

Allan

 

Aren't the style of the WW2 and Post WW2 Canadian wings a little different? As I recall the tips of the wings are different, one type having thin up turned and the other being the thicker style

 

Geez, I should remember I used to collect this stuff.


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I have to disagree Alan.... the FSSF while in theater was getting replacements from various sources, disbanded Ranger battalions and also paratroopers direct from the Airborne school at Ft Benning. If you were a Forceman and you went through ANY jump training be it Canadian or US Army you would be entitled to wear both the Canadian and US jump wings.... just one of the benifits of being in a multi-national unit with no regulations to say otherwise. What happens today is a different story.... I wear both even though I only made one jump with the Canadians. My one jump was worth the usual three..... since it was in gusts up to 22-24 knots. :blink: The picture Mr-X posted says it all.

 

Outside a couple members of the cadre, the US troopers who were assigned to the FSSF came in without being jump qualified, so would not have had wings prior to earning them in Montana. The Canadian troops who came to the Force were already jump qualified. The Canadians would have either earned British jump wings by completing the school in England, or would have been in the group of Canadian parachutists who completed jump training at Fort Benning and were awarded Canadian jump wings. There would have been no opportunity for any of the Americans in the FSSF to have earned Canadian wings. SUre, it is possible that the veteran (if this is a legitimate group) acquired a Canadian wing from a Canadian Forceman, but he would not have been able to wear the brevet with his US wing. As has been mentioned previously, if the former owner was Canadian, then you would have seen matched "Canada" insignias rather than the US devices in the frame.

I am not convinced that the Canadian brevet is a World War II era brevet. It appears to me to have been cut down from a larger background. That is usually done to get rid of the tell-tale hump at the bottom of a post-war pattern Canadian jump wing.

Allan

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I have to disagree Alan.... the FSSF while in theater was getting replacements from various sources, disbanded Ranger battalions and also paratroopers direct from the Airborne school at Ft Benning. If you were a Forceman and you went through ANY jump training be it Canadian or US Army you would be entitled to wear both the Canadian and US jump wings.... just one of the benifits of being in a multi-national unit with no regulations to say otherwise. What happens today is a different story.... I wear both even though I only made one jump with the Canadians. My one jump was worth the usual three..... since it was in gusts up to 22-24 knots. :blink: The picture Mr-X posted says it all.

 

Ralph,

We will just have to disagree as I have yet to meet an American FSSF vet who was entitled to wear or even wore Canadian jump wings during the war. The only wings handed out at Fort Harrison were US wings. Canadian wings were tightly controlled and in very short supply early on with many Canadians only having one wing issued to them and no opportunities to get others. If you could provide a photo of an American in the FSSF wearing Canadian jump wings in WWII, then that will change the discussion considerably.

As for FSSF replacements, I do not recall reading or hearing of additional Canadians joining the ranks of the Force after they arrived in Italy. I believe that all of the replacements were Americans. Also, there was no method for jump qualifying these replacement in theater at the time, so most members of the FSSF went to Southern France via glider and by sea.

Allan


Never under-estimate the power of prayer.

 

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I can only speak for the Americans.... a good friend of my that was in the FSSF wears Canadian wings.... earned his US wings at Ft Benning and also was a Force replacement in Italy. I have know idea what the Canadians did and what their regulations said.... if there even were any during the period. The original question was asked about US brass and Canadian jump wings. A picture was presented of a Canadian officer wearing both US and Canadian wings.... I have no doubt that they did wing exchanges. I would agree that finding a picture would be difficult I have several and don't recall seeing them worn.... but most aren't even wearing their US wings.

 

Ralph,

We will just have to disagree as I have yet to meet an American FSSF vet who was entitled to wear or even wore Canadian jump wings during the war. The only wings handed out at Fort Harrison were US wings. Canadian wings were tightly controlled and in very short supply early on with many Canadians only having one wing issued to them and no opportunities to get others. If you could provide a photo of an American in the FSSF wearing Canadian jump wings in WWII, then that will change the discussion considerably.

As for FSSF replacements, I do not recall reading or hearing of additional Canadians joining the ranks of the Force after they arrived in Italy. I believe that all of the replacements were Americans. Also, there was no method for jump qualifying these replacement in theater at the time, so most members of the FSSF went to Southern France via glider and by sea.

Allan

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I can only speak for the Americans.... a good friend of my that was in the FSSF wears Canadian wings.... earned his US wings at Ft Benning and also was a Force replacement in Italy. I have know idea what the Canadians did and what their regulations said.... if there even were any during the period. The original question was asked about US brass and Canadian jump wings. A picture was presented of a Canadian officer wearing both US and Canadian wings.... I have no doubt that they did wing exchanges. I would agree that finding a picture would be difficult I have several and don't recall seeing them worn.... but most aren't even wearing their US wings.

 

I read an interview, in the AAMUC newsletter I believe, of a 4th Ranger vet who was a replacement to the FSSF. He stated he wore jump wings even though he was not qualified because everybody else in the unit had them.

 

Ray


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This pic might help to answer that question.

 

This is a Canadian officer with both wings. So it might have gone both ways.

 

MVC-0hh09S.jpg

 

I would be interested in knowing when and under what circumstances this photo was taken. After US uniforms were issued and the officers were able to purchase theirs Fredericks strictly forbid the intermixing of uniforms and insignia.

 

Ray


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In my opinion this photograph was most likely taken sometime after the FSSF was disbanded January 6, 1945 at Menton, France.

 

 

I would be interested in knowing when and under what circumstances this photo was taken. After US uniforms were issued and the officers were able to purchase theirs Fredericks strictly forbid the intermixing of uniforms and insignia.

 

Ray

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