WWII gilder found at Ft. Benning

[shevy]

Back in the 80's (84-85?) a group on soldiers on a detail may have been in basic or airborne school came across a WWII glider in the woods. The soldiers were give a certificate something like "raiders of the lost glider" Indiana Jones movie was out during the time. I served wit one of them at Ft. Bragg in the 82nd. I all ways wondered about this story. If anyone has any information that would be great.

[sactroop]

Looking forward to hearing more about this. I'll send a link to this thread to "Gliderman". If anyone knows about this story he may.

[willysmb44]

I have heard rumors of the glider find off and on through the years but frankly I doubt it really happened as so little solid info is out there. I know the museum has a postwar glider, might that be the one?

[gliderman1]

Looking forward to hearing more about this. I'll send a link to this thread to "Gliderman". If anyone knows about this story he may.

 

Sorry, I do not know about this for certain. Because most of the CG-15A "stayed home" and were used by the airborne to the end of glider era in the Bragg area, it may be one of the CG-15A frames that have showed up in the past three or four years.

 

Go to the 82 AB, Fort Bragg web site and see slide 75. That is the only CG-15A that I know of in a museum and to my knowledge no one has ever rebuilt a CG-15A. Although the glider was flown there for the museum, only the cockpit and cargo section are on display and the wings and tail section disappeared years ago. What is there is original, and is un-restored. WACO built one XCG-15 and two XCG-15A before production. This glider is the first production article by WACO (45-5276). It was used for the rigid tow bar tests in 1946-47. the large cup shaped dish around the tow release is part of that universal joint connection of the rigid tow bar system.

 

http://82ndairbornedivisionmuseum.com/tour/tour.html

[gliderman1]

I have heard rumors of the glider find off and on through the years but frankly I doubt it really happened as so little solid info is out there. I know the museum has a postwar glider, might that be the one?

 

The glider in the museum, Ft. Benning, is a rebuilt CG-4A which is one of the two rebuilt for the Army in Oregon several years ago. The only gliders built, post war were the XG-18 and XG-20 which became the C-122 and C-123. All others (CG-4A, CG-15A, CG-13A) were built before contract cancellations in middle to fall of 1945.

[willysmb44]

The glider in the museum, Ft. Benning, is a rebuilt CG-4A which is one of the two rebuilt for the Army in Oregon several years ago. The only gliders built, post war were the XG-18 and XG-20 which became the C-122 and C-123. All others (CG-4A, CG-15A, CG-13A) were built before contract cancellations in middle to fall of 1945.

Sorry, I meant the one at Bragg...

[shevy]

I may call the 82nd museum tomorrow to ask for some info. I drive past Bragg every year during vacation. I usually stop to relive "the old days". The wife and son usually stay in the car.

[hawkdriver]

Color me stupid, but weren't these made of plywood and fabric? A glider left out in the eastern environs unattended would last about as long as a waffle cone on a hot day. How long was this glider supposed to be out there before being found?

[shevy]

I still remember the guys first and last name. May do some internet private eye work and try to track him down and get the full story.

[SKIPH]

Hey Gang! There's a full glider in the Airborne-Special Ops museum in downtown Fayetteville Nc. Not sure if it;s a repro. The 82d museum still has the front portion of their glider, now encased in plexiglass(too many finger poked holes in the fabric). Camp Mackall has a piece of frame, looks like tubing for seat and pedals at the pavilion on the main compound. I saw with my own eyes a crashed glider stuck up in trees in 1970, at that time it had probably been there for 25 or 26 years. I found the crushed nose with data plate, and a tiny bit of fabric in 82-83 when I was an instructor at Camp Mackall. There's probably still parts all over NC. SKIP

[shevy]

Hey Gang! There's a full glider in the Airborne-Special Ops museum in downtown Fayetteville Nc. Not sure if it;s a repro. The 82d museum still has the front portion of their glider, now encased in plexiglass(too many finger poked holes in the fabric). Camp Mackall has a piece of frame, looks like tubing for seat and pedals at the pavilion on the main compound. I saw with my own eyes a crashed glider stuck up in trees in 1970, at that time it had probably been there for 25 or 26 years. I found the crushed nose with data plate, and a tiny bit of fabric in 82-83 when I was an instructor at Camp Mackall. There's probably still parts all over NC. SKIP

 

Thanks SKIP, I was talking with a buddy about the vines that grown down south. The vines were imported to control erosion. That stuff can get pretty thick and it covers everything.

[sactroop]

Hey Gang! There's a full glider in the Airborne-Special Ops museum in downtown Fayetteville Nc. Not sure if it;s a repro. The 82d museum still has the front portion of their glider, now encased in plexiglass(too many finger poked holes in the fabric). Camp Mackall has a piece of frame, looks like tubing for seat and pedals at the pavilion on the main compound. I saw with my own eyes a crashed glider stuck up in trees in 1970, at that time it had probably been there for 25 or 26 years. I found the crushed nose with data plate, and a tiny bit of fabric in 82-83 when I was an instructor at Camp Mackall. There's probably still parts all over NC. SKIP

 

Charlie told me that one is the other glider that was made in the 90's in Oregon.

[SKIPH]

Shevy-"Cudsu" (SP). It can overwhelm areas. But, can also be very useful. You can actually make a lot of field crafts with it, baskets, backpacks, etc. As I recall, it was brought in as cattle feed, but could be wrong. In the 80's I worked with two of my former instructors from 1970, one was on the patrol when we came upon the glider in the tree. Neither one could remember where it was. SKIP

[gliderman1]

Color me stupid, but weren't these made of plywood and fabric? A glider left out in the eastern environs unattended would last about as long as a waffle cone on a hot day. How long was this glider supposed to be out there before being found?

 

Wings were wood ribs covered with 3/16", 5 ply aircraft plywood covered with cotton aircraft fabric, doped and painted. Fuselage was several types of steel tubing covered with fabric doped and painted. Floor was 3/16" aircraft plywood, honeycomb (said to be several thousand pieces) center, sealed surfaces.

 

You are correct in noting wood decay. What would have been found was only the steel framework and possibly part of a floor or part of a wing that just happened to not rot.

 

All of the known worldwide rebuilds are CG-4A that began with an original frame that had been in the elements for years (30, 40, 50). The NMUSAF CG-4A, which is one of the Gibson Girls, was new but had not been stored inside and had to be partially rebuilt. The SWM, Lubbock was a whole glider, partially decayed, from atop a tire store where it was advertising the store. The two Oregon rebuilds (SpecOps museum and Benning Infantry) were frames only. The Kzoo Air Zoo frame pieces and the Military museum Greenville, MI I believe came from the Kansas City area. The rebuild at St. Paul, MN is a Lloyd built (Ford or NW) frame that was outside. The rebuild at Yanks is a Lloyd built frame (NW) which still had part of the papreg floor attached (a form of plastic laminate, papreg was new in 1944). The CG-4A in France was shipped there new, supposedly for a movie, but not used and was left to decay and had to be totally rebuilt. The fuselage on Long Island was I believe from Pennsylvania (Tobyhanna depot area). The rebuild at Iron Mountain, MI was Loyd/Ford, covered with aluminum sheet converted to hunting trailer. The frame in Idaho was converted to a camping trailer and is not rebuilt. I am not sure about the source of the frames at Whitman and Dover.

 

Most of the rebuilds/frames in the US were never complete gliders. They were work in progress when contracts were cancelled. Most of the completed gliders still in the US were at Army depots in the crates and were sold as surplus. In 1946 building lumber was still in short supply and the crate wood was more desirable than the glider parts. Wheels, tires, control cables and other various parts were salvaged and sold by new owners who then left the frame to rust out in the wood. There is a story of a family in PA who used the crate wood to build a new room on their home and used the fuselage for all the neighborhood kids to play in. There supposedly are or were cabins in the Pocono Mtns (Tobyhanna depot again) built from glider crate wood and the closets have the crate wood outside-in so the stenciled glider info was/is visible.

 

The CG-15A fuselage in the 82 A/B museum on Ft Bragg has not been rebuilt and it has not been outside most of its life. It is too bad they do not have high ceilings so they could raise the nose and show one of the unique features of the 15A which was the loading ramp. The ramp was hinged to the floor and when the nose was closed, the ramp was the lower part of the cockpit.

 

Go the the Travis museum site and have a look at the various exterior photos of the Flak Bait glider cockpit. You will see that the bottom of the nose is flat rather than rounded smoothly to the back. This is a CG-15A cockpit with the loading ramp missing. The tow release is in the nose below the windscreen. The CG-4A tow release was never in this position unless the bolt-on- Griswold-nose-protection-device was installed. Even then, the tow release was outside the nose not inside. This reconstruction is a totally incorrect representation of a CG-4A. You will also find great photos of this cockpit on-line which refer to the glider as the Haig. I have never found where this name originated or who used it. The USAAF never used Haig in reference to any of the various glider models. The closest explanation I have found is that the British were going to call it the Haig but changed and used Hadrian.

[AustinO]

Would just like to add that last week I visited the CG-4A Waco thats being rebuilt just south of St Paul, truly impressive aircraft. The Waco that they are rebuilding here has a number of original wood parts in it, mainly because it is being rebuilt by a company that manufactured the parts during the war! The guys working on the project are apparently leaving one side of skin off to show the craftsmanship involved. I believe it will be going on display in a museum somewhere nearby. I also spied another frame propped up against a wall while visiting, just the nose section but looked like another Waco.

Took a couple pictures with my cellphone but they're not very impressive.

[AustinO]

[gliderman1]

 

AustinO,

 

Good work!! WWII company name was Villaume Box Co. Still owned by same family for over 100 years! Villaume built the wood components for Northwestern Aeronautical. The current company owner is an avid family/company historian who has saved lots of important stuff about the company's WWII work.

 

Did you see the wings? I am not sure they have both built but they were planning on building both wings.

 

Tentative plans are for the glider to be at Fagens Fighters & Warhawks in Granite City, MN west of Minn/St Paul. He is building a new hangar (might be done now?) dedicated to the display of WWII aircraft and other stuff.

 

This group has another set of fuselage frames and CG-4A cockpit. They have a CG-15A cockpit they have partially rebuilt.

[sactroop]

Back during the war and before being sent to the ETO in the spring of 44 my father-in-law along with another glider pilot were sent up to the factory in Minn/St.Paul to inspect the facility. The work crew was made up primarily of "Rosie's". Bill always blushes when he tells the story. In his words; "Those women had some mouths on them."

[AustinO]

AustinO,

 

Good work!! WWII company name was Villaume Box Co. Still owned by same family for over 100 years! Villaume built the wood components for Northwestern Aeronautical. The current company owner is an avid family/company historian who has saved lots of important stuff about the company's WWII work.

 

Did you see the wings? I am not sure they have both built but they were planning on building both wings.

 

Tentative plans are for the glider to be at Fagens Fighters & Warhawks in Granite City, MN west of Minn/St Paul. He is building a new hangar (might be done now?) dedicated to the display of WWII aircraft and other stuff.

 

This group has another set of fuselage frames and CG-4A cockpit. They have a CG-15A cockpit they have partially rebuilt.

 

The glider had recently been relocated to two different buildings, the fuselage in one and wings in another. We opted to skip viewing the wings but AFAIK they are completed. The guys were busy OD painting the skin on the fuselage and prepping it for display; short of paint and installing plexiglass on the open side I believe they were finished. Warhawks is where its going to be, I haven't been out there yet.

[gliderman1]

Back during the war and before being sent to the ETO in the spring of 44 my father-in-law along with another glider pilot were sent up to the factory in Minn/St.Paul to inspect the facility. The work crew was made up primarily of "Rosie's". Bill always blushes when he tells the story. In his words; "Those women had some mouths on them."

 

I suppose that is because 77% of Minnesotans are German, Svedish, Norvegian or Irish and that percentage was probably higher 1941-45.

 

As I understand Northwestern had a couple buildings (Hiawatha St was one) plus a hangar at the airfield. Sub-contractors, Villaume and De Ponti had their own facilities doing components, frames and assembly for NW.

 

A couple years ago a man who was a young kid at the time, living down the alley from one of the factory building, told me he would gather wood scraps from the bins and take them home to burn in the stove for heat and cooking.

 

How about a story or two about the NW and sub-contractor facilities?

[uplandmod]

Didn't they build a new one for The Longest Day? I remember them saying that when they were finished they were just going to tow it over in the air and the builder said "You can't do that! that would be too dangerous!"

 

I wonder if any the Longest Day gliders are still around (although I think it might be the British gliders...)

 

Leonardo

[gliderman1]

Leonardo, I don't know about building a new one for the movie and I have not watched the Longest Day since about 2004. Had one been built for the movie I doubt it would have been flyable or towable. IMHO, any "factual" stuff in a movie is not particularly credible unless you can confirm. Seems to me that in LD (or some other movie) the shots of CG-4A gliders landing actually was Army film shot at Laurinburg-Maxton exercises.

 

The only full size Horsa rebuild I know of is at the Pegasus museum. The Assault Glider Project should be about finished with their rebuild which is very authentic. The AGP built and shipped a complete Horsa cockpit for the Silent Wings Museum where it has been on display for almost two years. SWM also has the Horsa bulkheads built by AGP. SWM sent a CG-4A frame to AGP which is well along as a Hadrian at Shawbury. Last I heard they were not going to finish the Hadrian wings. As well, they have to be out of Shawbury in 2013 and are negotiating for display space for their Horsa, Hadrian, Tiger Moth, and Dakota.

 

At Pegasus there is an original Horsa partial cargo section, well weathered. Museum of Army Flying, Middle wallop has two partial Horsa fuselages (which I believe are original) and cockpits along with cockpit/cargo section of a Hamilcar and the fuselage of a Hadrian.

[rr01]

There is a very good glider scene in "A Bridge Too Far" that I have looked at many times and concluded Hollywood did a very good job intercutting the takeoff sequence to make it look real.

Having been involved with the replica glider project a few years ago I wondered what sort of airworthiness certificate the builders were going to get for that aircraft. I'm sure flyable homebuilt gliders fall into a different category than powered aircraft I also wondered what sort of airworthiness requirements would need to be met in Europe for the re~enactment that never took place.

Amazingly, tubular airframes turn up all the time and it would not surprise me one bit if there isn't an old frame in a barn somewhere being used as a roost for all the chickens.

[uplandmod]

Leonardo, I don't know about building a new one for the movie and I have not watched the Longest Day since about 2004. Had one been built for the movie I doubt it would have been flyable or towable. IMHO, any "factual" stuff in a movie is not particularly credible unless you can confirm. Seems to me that in LD (or some other movie) the shots of CG-4A gliders landing actually was Army film shot at Laurinburg-Maxton exercises.

 

The only full size Horsa rebuild I know of is at the Pegasus museum. The Assault Glider Project should be about finished with their rebuild which is very authentic. The AGP built and shipped a complete Horsa cockpit for the Silent Wings Museum where it has been on display for almost two years. SWM also has the Horsa bulkheads built by AGP. SWM sent a CG-4A frame to AGP which is well along as a Hadrian at Shawbury. Last I heard they were not going to finish the Hadrian wings. As well, they have to be out of Shawbury in 2013 and are negotiating for display space for their Horsa, Hadrian, Tiger Moth, and Dakota.

 

At Pegasus there is an original Horsa partial cargo section, well weathered. Museum of Army Flying, Middle wallop has two partial Horsa fuselages (which I believe are original) and cockpits along with cockpit/cargo section of a Hamilcar and the fuselage of a Hadrian.

 

I suggest you should watch the film again, I remember vaguely one is in the background in one of the paratrooper scenes. All my DVDs are in storage so I can't see it myself right now to confirm and put a screen capture of it.

 

The "factual" statement was just and anecdote story by no mean was I was trying to say it really happened or not, but a funny story that somebody would make an exact replica that was good enough for our soldiers in 1944 but in 1960 it was "too dangerous to fly..." but I guess the humor of it got lost somewhere...

 

If a 1/1 repo was made for the film, makes me wonder what happened to it, most like trashed somewhere along the way...

 

rr01 here is a great link on the BTF Horsas:

 

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread....5074&page=2

 

 

Leonardo

[rr01]

This web site {http://homepage.mac.com/cirquefilm/vfxhistory/AWARDS/HTML/1962.html} explains some of the special effects for "The Longest Day" including the glider scenes.