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zouave114
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zouave114

Hello again, been a while since posting here, but looking forward once again to the Reading Airshow and wearing my WW2 Navy uniform. Whenever I switch between a Civil War event and WW2, my friend Paul always argues with me about facial hair. I had posted here a while ago, and thought that the matter was settled until my friend sent me more info questioning it. Before I shave once again and lose my impression for Civil War Zouave, what do you think of the following?

 

http://www.nww2m.com/2011/09/beards-on-boats/

 

Jeff Rodriguez

Wenonah, NJ

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Corpl. Cleaver

I'll be there all weekend.

I'll keep my eyes open for a bearded sailor.

 

Tyler

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As a reenactor/living historian, my opinion is that one should strive for "the norm" in whatever is being represented. Which is a different approach from 'gee, I spent months researching and found a pic which proves that ____ WAS done in the era I'm portraying.'

 

Which impression is most important to you: Zouave or sailor? No need to answer me, just decide (and act) on your own...whatever the answer is.

 

My $0.02,

Steve

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BigJohn#3RD
As a reenactor/living historian, my opinion is that one should strive for "the norm" in whatever is being represented. Which is a different approach from 'gee, I spent months researching and found a pic which proves that ____ WAS done in the era I'm portraying.'

 

Which impression is most important to you: Zouave or sailor? No need to answer me, just decide (and act) on your own...whatever the answer is.

 

My $0.02,

Steve

 

Having reenacted WWII for close to 20 years and having served in the military 30 years; I personally feel that if you do not want to look the part of the average GI, Marine, Airman or Sailor then please do not dawn the uniform as it is a slight on the veterans who's service we strive to represent. I like my beard and handlebar mustache and one can show examples of US paratroopers and other elite units with such individuals but it is not the norm. If you just want to wear the "costume" because it is cool save it for Halloween or Mardi Gras do not dishonor the average veteran you are claiming to represent. If I sound harsh, my apologies, but perception is reality beards and handlebar mustaches fit in as much as a pony tail would.

Respectfully,

John

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Having reenacted WWII for close to 20 years and having served in the military 30 years; I personally feel that if you do not want to look the part of the average GI, Marine, Airman or Sailor then please do not don the uniform as it is a slight on the veterans who's service we strive to represent. I like my beard and handlebar mustache and one can show examples of US paratroopers and other elite units with such individuals but it is not the norm. If you just want to wear the "costume" because it is cool save it for Halloween or Mardi Gras do not dishonor the average veteran you are claiming to represent. If I sound harsh, my apologies, but perception is reality: beards and handlebar mustaches fit in as much as a pony tail would.

Respectfully,

John

 

John, I have to agree with you. Yes, there were bearded sailors, airmen and soldiers (but darned few Marines, I'd bet), but they were not the norm. In my unit I can show photos of all kinds of violations, and can track one soldier's inability to get a promotion above Private for 2 years because of his avoidance of the razor. That, and being assigned to KP for every barracks inspection, and being assigned to the mule stables for every kitchen inspection for 2 years. If you want to be that "soldier", or go work the coal bunkers or in the engine room for the "sailor" equivilent. No shore leave for you till the beard goes away!

 

But the average GI met the grooming standards and looked the part. Why break character with a beard, when your uncle Joe didn't? Unless you are portraying a ghurka or a well known historical character (Abe Lincoln?), either ditch the beard or take off the uniform. You dishonor the millions of men who shaved because THAT was what they were supposed to do, and even if you tracked down that unshaven soldier, he would probably tell you that it wasn't worth it in the long run.

 

Me - I grow a beard every Fall (after veteran's Day) and shave it for the first event of the Spring season. But then I only do WWII GI because I can only do justice to one unit in the detail I think it deserves. That's just me and my 2 cents... (which won't buy you a good pack of razor blades)

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In all my years I have met only one Squid who should never be without his mustache. I'm not being harsh when I say I doubt you or anyone else for that matter could ever give as good a representation. Shave da face.

post-54272-1336538621.jpg

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uplandmod

Ok i'll be the decenting opinion..

 

I've seen dozens of picture of Sailors a few weeks growth small beards and moustaches usually piloting landing craft and such which i concluded in certain roles beards were regularly tolerated in certain situations. Look at the pictures above, notice how they all are in denims. The Navy has different traditions than the Army, and I believe this is one of those situations where they differ.

But one simply shouldnt throw on a dress jumper and walk around with huge beard, it should be accurately protrayed in a specific impression such as part of a crew of a landing craft. It is unusual that beachmasters, corpsman, large ship crews etc dont have beards but I see it regularly on landing craft crew in WWII. Keep in mind they arent huge civil war beards but at the most a couple of weeks growth. The beard should still be period in light of the specific impression you would want to portray.

 

I would like to know what Steve H thinks about this subject.

 

Leonardo

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but sailors with the most luxuriant beards tended to be submarine crewmen, didn't they (same in the Royal Navy and Kriegsmarine) because standards of appearance were "lowered" due to the nature of the environment in which they served and the length of their cruises etc. Conditions aboard those pig-boats weren't necessarily conducive to usual standards of personal hygiene. Therefore, if your USN impression is of a submariner then your beard (known as a "full-set" in the RN) would probably be appropriate. If it's a turret-captain aboard a battlewagon, then probably not. Know what I mean?

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hawkdriver
Correct me if I'm wrong, but sailors with the most luxuriant beards tended to be submarine crewmen, didn't they (same in the Royal Navy and Kriegsmarine) because standards of appearance were "lowered" due to the nature of the environment in which they served and the length of their cruises etc. Conditions aboard those pig-boats weren't necessarily conducive to usual standards of personal hygiene. Therefore, if your USN impression is of a submariner then your beard (known as a "full-set" in the RN) would probably be appropriate. If it's a turret-captain aboard a battlewagon, then probably not. Know what I mean?

 

Ya, ever deal with a clogged drain on a submarine? Neither have I, but it must be pretty ugly!

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zouave114

Hi John,

 

Thank you for your input (and thank you for your service). My mind was pretty much made up as for accuracy with the facial hair, I wanted to get something to show the person who was trying to convince me otherwise. I portray WW2 Navy to honor my father and all the others who have gone before. As with Civil War, you want to portray the norm. I had a feeling this is what would be posted. I've done Navy a few years now and only had the mustache once the first time because I didn't do all my homework first. I have always shaved since. I'm thankful for all the responses!

 

 

 

Jeff

 

Having reenacted WWII for close to 20 years and having served in the military 30 years; I personally feel that if you do not want to look the part of the average GI, Marine, Airman or Sailor then please do not dawn the uniform as it is a slight on the veterans who's service we strive to represent. I like my beard and handlebar mustache and one can show examples of US paratroopers and other elite units with such individuals but it is not the norm. If you just want to wear the "costume" because it is cool save it for Halloween or Mardi Gras do not dishonor the average veteran you are claiming to represent. If I sound harsh, my apologies, but perception is reality beards and handlebar mustaches fit in as much as a pony tail would.

Respectfully,

John

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BigJohn#3RD

Jeff,

Thank you for bringing this up as it is a personal peeve of mine over the years. Though I have grown a handlebar mustache while deployed and out in the desert I cut it back or off when I get home as most if not all soldiers do. I recently attended a WWII battle in the Mid West recently where some us tankers had all kind of hair sticking out from under their leather crew helmets and it just wrecked the moment. Not that I do not appreciate their bringing their tanks but get a hair cut trim at least or stay home as this is not the set of "Kelly's Hero's". Then there is the pony-tailed Russian partisan that just does not belong at a Russian Front event but continues to show up for at least 10 years. If the hair is such a big part of your life than stay home and watch the history channel. I have seen numerous bushy haired paratroopers in parades, marines and rangers over the years much to my amazement and here them saying they are honoring the veteran, hog wash, all the vets avoid them like the plague but when they see a person properly groomed and wearing their branch of service properly the vets and their families flock to the reenactors to get their picture taken with them that is the true moment when it is worth it being in the scratchy hot wool uniform.

 

I'm glad that you are taking the mature approach and bringing you ego into the submission of military regulations; that is what all the service members have had to do in order to serve our great nation and it is only fitting that those portraying them to the public do the same as well.

Regards,

John

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Hope you don't mind if I throw this in, it's just a little off topic, the US Army Haircut Policy poster from the early 70's, I remember the Plt. Sgt. telling me it's time to go to the barber, I told him I'm allowed to have my hair like those guys in the poster, he said "Negative, when you look like those guys in the poster, it's time to go to the barber." And coming back from the barber, the Plt. Sgt., "Did the barber kiss you"? I answered "Hell no, why"? the answer, "Well, normally after one makes love to another (I cleaned it up) you usally get a kiss"! Meaning the Plt. Sgt. didn't like my haircut. :lol:

armyhcp.jpg

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PvtTamura

I shave my mustache for most living history events. (it grows back fast when you don't have a huge beard!)

However, I will admit I've done a couple V/N living History events with a mustache. :pinch:

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tsakers85

My Father-in-Law is a retired Navy Chief and a number of his fellow chiefs maintained beards up until they were no longer allowed. They then chose to wear mustaches and he wore a mustache for the better half of his career. His sailors referred to him as "Mario" and even made a red hard hat for him with a brass M mounted on the front. (he had and still has a very large mustache)

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My Father-in-Law is a retired Navy Chief and a number of his fellow chiefs maintained beards up until they were no longer allowed. They then chose to wear mustaches and he wore a mustache for the better half of his career. His sailors referred to him as "Mario" and even made a red hard hat for him with a brass M mounted on the front. (he had and still has a very large mustache)

 

January 1, 1985 - beards were banned in uniform regs. Facial hair restrictions (to E-4 and above) were adhered to with mustaches being more aligned with a certain German socialist dictator's style....meaning they could not exceed the boundaries of the corners of the mouth and could not touch the nose. For me, it meant looking more like AH rather than having a real mustache. Most of the chiefs I worked for ran afoul of the regs and had mustaches that more closely resembled beards, extending past the mouth and down toward the chin.

 

If you're portraying a submariner, I'd say the beard would be allowable...but it wasn't a norm even for them during the war. If the skipper wanted to enforce the regulations...he did. Men shaved. The certainly had to be clean-shaven when they returned to Pearl at the end of patrol as they weren't allowed to hit the beach all furry. If you're aboard a boat (sub), sport the beard. If you're ashore...shave it clean or stick to CW...just my $.02.

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uplandmod

I have a few in one of my Iwo Jima books, looks like the Sailor/Marine has a Jazz era beard from the 1950's!

 

Leonardo

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zouave114

You're quite welcome, The BIGGEST stickler with me doing Civil War are eyeglasses that are totally incorrect...! With all periods we do, we must remember, those who went before us did not ask us to do this!

Good thread, learned much

 

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

Thank you for bringing this up as it is a personal peeve of mine over the years. Though I have grown a handlebar mustache while deployed and out in the desert I cut it back or off when I get home as most if not all soldiers do. I recently attended a WWII battle in the Mid West recently where some us tankers had all kind of hair sticking out from under their leather crew helmets and it just wrecked the moment. Not that I do not appreciate their bringing their tanks but get a hair cut trim at least or stay home as this is not the set of "Kelly's Hero's". Then there is the pony-tailed Russian partisan that just does not belong at a Russian Front event but continues to show up for at least 10 years. If the hair is such a big part of your life than stay home and watch the history channel. I have seen numerous bushy haired paratroopers in parades, marines and rangers over the years much to my amazement and here them saying they are honoring the veteran, hog wash, all the vets avoid them like the plague but when they see a person properly groomed and wearing their branch of service properly the vets and their families flock to the reenactors to get their picture taken with them that is the true moment when it is worth it being in the scratchy hot wool uniform.

 

I'm glad that you are taking the mature approach and bringing you ego into the submission of military regulations; that is what all the service members have had to do in order to serve our great nation and it is only fitting that those portraying them to the public do the same as well.

Regards,

John

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