INIMICUS Posted April 30, 2012 Share #1 Posted April 30, 2012 I MAKE THESE T/B INTERWAR OR WWII & FOR A SENIOR OFFICER - COLONEL OR GENERAL. IS THAT RIGHT? ALSO, ON THESE KNOTS SHOULD THERE BE AN EGA DEVICE AT THE 'FAT' END? NO MARKS SAVE FOR MAYBE UNDER THE BUTTONS WHICH I HAVEN'T REMOVED; THO MAYBE THAT'D HELP IN DATING? THANKS A LOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INIMICUS Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share #2 Posted April 30, 2012 I MAKE THESE T/B INTERWAR OR WWII & FOR A SENIOR OFFICER - COLONEL OR GENERAL. IS THAT RIGHT? ALSO, ON THESE KNOTS SHOULD THERE BE AN EGA DEVICE AT THE 'FAT' END? NO MARKS SAVE FOR MAYBE UNDER THE BUTTONS WHICH I HAVEN'T REMOVED; THO MAYBE THAT'D HELP IN DATING? THANKS A LOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INIMICUS Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share #3 Posted April 30, 2012 LAST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted April 30, 2012 Share #4 Posted April 30, 2012 The use of these "Knots" came about with the adoption of the "Evening Mess Dress" and without benefit of a full copy of the 1900 regulations... I believe this uniform was adopted at that time or shortly there after. Again w/o benefit of a copy uniform reg's in 48 or 55, I believe this uniform was phased out of use and the current "evening Mess dress" was adopted. One would need a copy of both to confirm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark M Posted April 30, 2012 Share #5 Posted April 30, 2012 I MAKE THESE T/B INTERWAR OR WWII & FOR A SENIOR OFFICER - COLONEL OR GENERAL. IS THAT RIGHT? ALSO, ON THESE KNOTS SHOULD THERE BE AN EGA DEVICE AT THE 'FAT' END? NO MARKS SAVE FOR MAYBE UNDER THE BUTTONS WHICH I HAVEN'T REMOVED; THO MAYBE THAT'D HELP IN DATING? THANKS A LOT. These knots were identical for all officers. The rank was displayed in the form of silver bullion embroidered on red wool and pinned to the middle of the boards. A pin back dress ega was pinned to the ends and finished them. The use of these was suspended at the outbreak of WW2 and replaced by the current style evening dress uniforms still worn today. Are these the same knots that were listed on eBay yesterday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted April 30, 2012 Share #6 Posted April 30, 2012 ... The use of these was suspended at the outbreak of WW2 and replaced by the current style evening dress uniforms Thats interesting info... Do you have a source / reference for this? Here is a set of knots from MGen W.T.P. Hill, he was not promoted to BGen until April 1944. I'm hard pressed to think a man who has the reputation for such frugality would have updated a uniform that was "suspended at the outbreak of WW2", and stateside Commands simply stopped having Mess nights and or other ceremonial events requiring the Evening Mess Dress. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...=32876&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark M Posted April 30, 2012 Share #7 Posted April 30, 2012 Thats interesting info... Do you have a source / reference for this? Not handy but if I remember correctly it was in the same orders that suspended the wear of the dress blues for all Marines, with the exception of Ships Detachment and Embassy Guards, for the duration of the war. Post WW2 the new style was adopted at the same time that the new enlisted dress blues were adopted. I won't post the photos since the uniform is not mine but USMCRaidergirl just sold a set to Lt General DJ Robertson here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...mp;hl=robertson His evening dress is unique in it started life as the old style evening dress with the boards and braid and was converted post war to the new style. Those photos are not the best but perhaps she or the new owner can post better photos of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin B. Posted April 30, 2012 Share #8 Posted April 30, 2012 That style of knot was worn pre-WW1 by staff officers, but I believe always had aiguilettes attached. Line officers wore the trefoil-pattern knots. The type of knots pictured above were standardized for all officers by the USMC Uniform Regs of 1922. The new style of evening jacket came along ('48, '49?) and had shoulder loops like the current style; what the phase-out date was for the old style of evening dress was I have no idea. But I think 1922 to 1950 is the ballpark. And yes, a collar-size EGA would be worn on the "pad." Justin B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark M Posted April 30, 2012 Share #9 Posted April 30, 2012 I found this reference to the new style evening dress uniform. Looks like August 1948 was the start date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted April 30, 2012 Share #10 Posted April 30, 2012 Bingo! That is what we needed for the correct period of the uniform... back to the start of this uniform. Justin, need some pic's or reg's posted re your line / Staff / Line Officer wear comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INIMICUS Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share #11 Posted April 30, 2012 THANKS TO YOU LEARNED GENTS! AND YEA MARK - THESE ARE THE SELFSAME KNOTS YOU ESPIED ON eBay. APPARENTLY THESE KNOTTY THINGS AREN'T MUCH DESIRED THESE DAYS. CHEERS & GOOD HUNTING, DW Bingo! That is what we needed for the correct period of the uniform... back to the start of this uniform. Justin, need some pic's or reg's posted re your line / Staff / Line Officer wear comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin B. Posted April 30, 2012 Share #12 Posted April 30, 2012 Justin, need some pic's or reg's posted re your line / Staff / Line Officer wear comments? That's easy because the 1912 and 1922 URs are online: 1912 1922 This is from the 1912 edition: Before 1922 line officers wore epaulettes for "special full dress" and knots for "full dress," using the same coat. Staff officers wore knots for both "special full" and "full," and all officers wore knots for mess dress. Articles 142-145 of the 1912 regs give the specs for line and staff knots and aiguilettes. A beautiful photo of the staff knots with attached aiguilette can be seem in teufelhunde.ret's post here. The 1922 regs are not illustrated, but Article 492 describes the shoulder knots as the same for line and staff, but with the aiguilette attached for permanent staff officers. Justin B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INIMICUS Posted May 26, 2012 Author Share #13 Posted May 26, 2012 That's easy because the 1912 and 1922 URs are online: 1912 1922 This is from the 1912 edition: Before 1922 line officers wore epaulettes for "special full dress" and knots for "full dress," using the same coat. Staff officers wore knots for both "special full" and "full," and all officers wore knots for mess dress. Articles 142-145 of the 1912 regs give the specs for line and staff knots and aiguilettes. A beautiful photo of the staff knots with attached aiguilette can be seem in teufelhunde.ret's post here. The 1922 regs are not illustrated, but Article 492 describes the shoulder knots as the same for line and staff, but with the aiguilette attached for permanent staff officers. Justin B. thanks again for the fulsome contribs.! david Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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