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WWI painted helmet - real or fake?

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Nothing, at all wrong with it.

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The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

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The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

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Nothing, at all wrong with it.

 

 

Thank you. He has another for sale that's missing the EGA. A WWI collector I know told me this one is a fake. What do you think? Could he have good and bad in his collection he's selling off?

 

I realize you can't prove for a fact with any of these undocumented WWI painted USMC helmets. But I've got absolutely no clue and appreciate the opinions of others.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USMC-WW1-Marine-Co...3#ht_500wt_1191

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You friend is mis-informed, nothing wrong here...

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The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

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The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
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Here is a ref. thread filled with examples of these painted helmets and EGA's

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=30549

 

Wow. Not sure how to even respond. That's a lot to take in. There does seem to be no consistency, type of paint, thickness, colors all vary. Also a wide range of color variation in the EGA's. Do you guys disagree much on here? One guy with years of experience says fake and another with similar experience says real?

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Do you guys disagree much on here? One guy with years of experience says fake and another with similar experience says real?

That's why it's called a discussion forum. You discuss, you agree, you disagree, make points, make counter points, learn, grow and hopefully find a common ground in which everyone gets educated.

 

As for the helmets shown, I'm not an EGA collector so, I'd defer to the EGA guys but as for the helmets themselves, based on the photo's and without the benefit of an actual in hand inspection... they look pretty legit.


"There is no such thing as an expert, only students with different levels of education."
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That's why it's called a discussion forum. You discuss, you agree, you disagree, make points, make counter points, learn, grow and hopefully find a common ground in which everyone gets educated.

 

As for the helmets shown, I'm not an EGA collector so, I'd defer to the EGA guys but as for the helmets themselves, based on the photo's and without the benefit of an actual in hand inspection... they look pretty legit.

 

Thank you. I appreciate your input. I get the idea behind a discussion forum. I must admit, I skimmed thru the three pages less than completely thoroughly. But I didn't notice much for discussion or disagreement. Seemed pretty unanimous that they were all good helmets. And that's not meant to be criticism, it simply confused me when there was so much variance in the incredible selection shown. Definitely didn't mean to sound critical. I referred to a very reputable dealer as a friend who told me fake. Now people on here who I believe are also supposed to be reputable tell me they're good. And I couldn't be more clueless. I guess I hope for a lot of replies and figure there is strength in numbers. lol

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The number of comments alone don't tell the whole story. I believe the seller is a member here as well....but has not chimed in on this thread....he and his brother (alongside several others on the forum) have handled enough good examples to carry more weight in any discussion on this subject....so unless one of a few other experts here weighs in counter to the comments above, i believe you have a excellent answer as provided by teufelhunde.ret....this is one good thing about the forum there are some collectors here who have a great deal of experience in the hobby and freely share their knowledge ....since these helmets are not my area of expertise, I for one would be curious what your friend does not like about the helmet.

 

I know your not intending to sound critical and only asking for opinions....fortunately you asked in an area we have some very smart people on the subject....


Always looking for items associated with the China Marines! Visit chinamarine.org

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I believe the seller is a member here as well....

 

Yep - I think you're right and he has been selling some great vintage Marine Corps stuff besides these helmets. This is someone you can trust for authenticity: I've sold stuff to his family and they do know vintage USMC for sure.



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The number of comments alone don't tell the whole story. I believe the seller is a member here as well....but has not chimed in on this thread....he and his brother (alongside several others on the forum) have handled enough good examples to carry more weight in any discussion on this subject....so unless one of a few other experts here weighs in counter to the comments above, i believe you have a excellent answer as provided by teufelhunde.ret....this is one good thing about the forum there are some collectors here who have a great deal of experience in the hobby and freely share their knowledge ....since these helmets are not my area of expertise, I for one would be curious what your friend does not like about the helmet.

 

I know your not intending to sound critical and only asking for opinions....fortunately you asked in an area we have some very smart people on the subject....

 

Ok, this is fantastic. I get a seriously good vibe. These helmets are not exactly in my price range. Since it's unlikely I'll ever own more than one, and won't be able to gain knowledge and experience from handling them, the good vibe is all I have going for me. I'm also curious about what my guy doesn't like about the helmet. But I was really only interested in knowing if it's cool to bid or best to stay away. So either these helmets are something to be prized in a collection, or you're all working together in a shop painting them. lol

 

I really do like this forum and don't utilize it enough. Honestly it's out of fear of drawing attention and competition to an item I might want.

 

I'm thankful for everyones help!

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Wow. Not sure how to even respond. That's a lot to take in. There does seem to be no consistency, type of paint, thickness, colors all vary. Also a wide range of color variation in the EGA's. Do you guys disagree much on here? One guy with years of experience says fake and another with similar experience says real?

 

 

These helmets will all vary to a degree as they were all hand done.But you will see helmets both Army or Marine (2nd Division) with simiiar Indians as they were painted by the same hand.I have a 2nd division army uniform with a hand painted Indian on the white cloth star.I have seen this style a couple dozen times and the same person who painted mine did the others.Just something you can tell after seeing.Same goes with fake helmets.When a faker is doing helmets his style is repeated and wil be fairly consistant and easy to pick out.


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Wow. Not sure how to even respond. That's a lot to take in. There does seem to be no consistency, type of paint, thickness, colors all vary. Also a wide range of color variation in the EGA's. Do you guys disagree much on here? One guy with years of experience says fake and another with similar experience says real?

You will not find definitive answers and a perfect list of what makes a "real" painted helmet on this Forum. These things are gained from experience in handling what I call "no doubters" (woodwork fresh, or family acquired.....essentially unquestionable provenance) and use of all of YOUR senses, not someone else's. Everyone has two cents in their pocket, but not everyone has $1500-2000 to step up and buy a good helmet. Therefore, it is real easy to get "advice" on this Forum. I understand that this can be frustrating, but if you look hard enough, and wait long enough, you will find one that you know in your heart of hearts is "real". Everything will point to it being "righteous". When you do find it (whether you buy it or not), study the heck out of it. When you see another one, you will now have a baseline from which to judge. You must remember however, it is only a baseline. Just because a subsequent helmet doesnt have the exact characteristics as the first, doesn't mean that it is bad. Truth of the matter is when you have seen one painted helmet.....well....you have seen one painted helmet. I know...frustrating.

 

If there was a list, this is mine:

a. Consistency in age (inside and out). While I have seen helmets that were stored "bottom up" that had a decent exterior with a rotted liner, there is still a form of believeable consistency to the age and deterioration. A rusty interior with a perfect exterior does not equate.

b. Seller reputation/source (is it from a family that can provide a name, is it an antique dealer, picker, militaria dealer?)

c. Paint that is over previous age (dont confuse this with paint over dings and scratches, as these were painted on the boat ride home and at home for parades)

d. Should be a punched hole for EGA and no recent signs of bare (shiny metal), I have never seen a vintage one with a perfectly drilled or round hole.

e. EGA has little bearing, as these can be easily removed/replaced (however if one has been "locked" on there for what looks like a century, well... it probably has!). I have seen real helmets with an EGA that is 60 years younger than the helmet. Dont discount the helmet on the EGA alone.

f. I like ones that have had the area where the paint has been applied to be "scrapped", that is to say, the rough sand finish taken away so that the paint could be applied smoothly. I see this done often, but again, is not a tell-tale sign.

g. If a helmet is named to 5th or 6th Reg Marine, check his entry into France, these guys should have been issued British Brodies. Totally different than the 1917A1, easiest way to tell is that the chinstrap bales are not riveted on a Brodie. Again, this is not tell-tale, as a hard fought Marine may have received a 1917A1 replacement.

h. Paint will be aged, hard, and cracked (dont need a magnifying glass) you will see it with the naked eye. This is easier to see on the thickly applied painted helmets. It is harder to tell on thin painted varities.

 

This is just off the top of my head...but some of my "two-cents".

 

S/F,

Mike


Mike Manifor
Buying and selling Military Antiques. Specializing in hat and collar insignia (EGAs) of the USMC.
Top dollar paid.
info@eagleglobeandanchor.com
My website:www.eagleglobeandanchor.com

Visit my EGA reference section: http://www.eagleglobeandanchor.com/EGA_Reference_Section.html

 


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I really do like this forum and don't utilize it enough. Honestly it's out of fear of drawing attention and competition to an item I might want.

I'm thankful for everyones help!

We have heard this reason before many times, some of us may even be guilty ourselves!

One thing about collecting that I have learned, is that there are FEW secrets when an item is on the sales block!!

 

I'm happy you put your trust here. :thumbsup:


**PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER HAS SADLY PASSED AWAY**

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/301020-robin-ray/

 

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Since they are my helmets for sale, I figured I would chime in. First and foremost, I appreciate all the dialogue, compliments, and kind comments....I am humbled...thank you to all who believe in our hobby. It is my passion and I wouldn't buy a helmet if I didn't like it. I have through the years sold helmets that I have duplicates of (the case here) or if I don't care for the artwork anymore, I upgraded, or merely to raise money for another purchase. After 30 years of looking at these things I feel I have a pretty good "eye" when it comes to the real ones. There are literally thousands of variations out there so one has to keep an open mind if wanting to collect these. I have blown it a few times by talking myself out of something that was out of the ordinary, only to see it later as a newly found "ultra rare" example. I learn new things almost weekly regarding USMC antiques, and I try to refrain from using the "E WORD".....I like to think of myself as very knowledgeable in certain areas, but by no means the expert. That being said, a lot of what is for sale on the auction block ends up being your reputation and experience when you are a big collector of these things. I buy my helmets mainly for the artwork, and have never placed that much emphasis on things like the liner, EGA etc. All those things can be had cheaply. Now, when it comes to selling these painted helmets....there are some things that even I look for. The paint, the age, the overall "look", and even the style of the Indian. I have found that certain units had a certain style or more than likely a few assigned artists that painted these things, and you start to see similarities that help you make your decision. For example, it is well documented that 2/6 helmets are often found with a distinct brown overpaint or finish. Why this was done is anyone's guess, but it is a nice tidbit to know when looking for them. As far as being named...that is nice info to have, but more often than not, that is not an issue for me. We are almost 100 years after WW1, and so much of that has been lost to the ages. What is important is that the helmet stands on it's own accord. Being named is only frosting on the cake. I make sure that the paint is always showed up close, from various angles, in natural light. There should be NO fuzzy photos, lack of photos, or otherwise things that make you go "HMMMM??" :think:

 

I offer, and always will, a reasonable inspection period, and guarantee all my helmets that I sell. They are each a substantial purchase and start to fall into the realm of investment grade antiques. There have been 3 or 4 really nice USMC lids sell on Ebay in the last 30 days, and they all went over $1,200. Some as high as $1,800! They continue to hold their value and are still one of my favorite things to buy and sell. This week I will be listing 3 different ones from my collection. A 1/5, 2/6, and a super scarce 15th Separate Battalion example. If anyone ever wants to contact me regarding a potential purchase, I am always willing to give my honest opinion.

 

Brian


LEATHERNECK72


Advanced Collector and USMC Officer --- Paying top dollar for quality Marine Corps antiques. Kepis, shakos, helmets, hats, good conduct medals, old photos, fighting knives, hat and collar emblems, swords, guns, documents. Keep your USMC item in a Marine Corps family! Send me a PM and let me know what you have....

 

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Since they are my helmets for sale, I figured I would chime in. First and foremost, I appreciate all the dialogue, compliments, and kind comments....I am humbled...thank you to all who believe in our hobby. It is my passion and I wouldn't buy a helmet if I didn't like it. I have through the years sold helmets that I have duplicates of (the case here) or if I don't care for the artwork anymore, I upgraded, or merely to raise money for another purchase. After 30 years of looking at these things I feel I have a pretty good "eye" when it comes to the real ones. There are literally thousands of variations out there so one has to keep an open mind if wanting to collect these. I have blown it a few times by talking myself out of something that was out of the ordinary, only to see it later as a newly found "ultra rare" example. I learn new things almost weekly regarding USMC antiques, and I try to refrain from using the "E WORD".....I like to think of myself as very knowledgeable in certain areas, but by no means the expert. That being said, a lot of what is for sale on the auction block ends up being your reputation and experience when you are a big collector of these things. I buy my helmets mainly for the artwork, and have never placed that much emphasis on things like the liner, EGA etc. All those things can be had cheaply. Now, when it comes to selling these painted helmets....there are some things that even I look for. The paint, the age, the overall "look", and even the style of the Indian. I have found that certain units had a certain style or more than likely a few assigned artists that painted these things, and you start to see similarities that help you make your decision. For example, it is well documented that 2/6 helmets are often found with a distinct brown overpaint or finish. Why this was done is anyone's guess, but it is a nice tidbit to know when looking for them. As far as being named...that is nice info to have, but more often than not, that is not an issue for me. We are almost 100 years after WW1, and so much of that has been lost to the ages. What is important is that the helmet stands on it's own accord. Being named is only frosting on the cake. I make sure that the paint is always showed up close, from various angles, in natural light. There should be NO fuzzy photos, lack of photos, or otherwise things that make you go "HMMMM??" :think:

 

I offer, and always will, a reasonable inspection period, and guarantee all my helmets that I sell. They are each a substantial purchase and start to fall into the realm of investment grade antiques. There have been 3 or 4 really nice USMC lids sell on Ebay in the last 30 days, and they all went over $1,200. Some as high as $1,800! They continue to hold their value and are still one of my favorite things to buy and sell. This week I will be listing 3 different ones from my collection. A 1/5, 2/6, and a super scarce 15th Separate Battalion example. If anyone ever wants to contact me regarding a potential purchase, I am always willing to give my honest opinion.

 

Brian

 

Very cool Brian. Thank you.

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I will add you cant go wrong buying from Brian.I would love to own these helmets


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Just my .02 from 50+ years of collecting. Based on what I've seen, handled, and owned, these two are right as rain. Wouldn't have a bit of a problem owning either of them.

 

John

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I have bought from Brian and/or I think it was a brother. Either way I was very pleased and found they were willing to share their extensive USMC Historical knowledge. You can't go wrong if they say it is real and guarantee it ----You can take it to the bank. Richard


Wanted: WWI ID'ed USMC Green Wool Uniform and ANYTHING documented to my Dad's Iwo Jima outfit: 21st Marines 3rd Div.

Items marked "Marquet, Marquett, or Marquette"

 

 

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Great helmets for sure. Should also thank both Brian and Mike for keeping the flow of "Old Corps" items going to collectors and making things interesting on Ebay. Dry times are a drag. Jeff


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