AEF Service Coat, 41st Div. 2nd Montana Rgmt, Spec. 1160

[Alonzo]

This past weekend at the Annual Calgary Easter Gun Show I found a WW1 US tunic with a 41st Division Patch, the collar discs are MONT and 2nd Infantry Coy. D. See photos

 

The interesting thing is that it appears to be made of three different types of Wool and the cotton lining. The primary shell is the classic Olive Drab, the interior and the bottom portion of the epaulettes are a dark green wool, and the backs of the sleeves, the inner collar and the top portion of one epaulette is a grey wool. The vendor stated that the tunic has been repaired thus the different wool used. Close revealed that the sleeves were not repaired with the grey wool, but were constructed with this odd color and likewise the epaulettes have not been re-constructed. The inner green wool has not been added after the fact either. It appears this is how the tunic was constructed at Jacob Reed's as per the pristine, crisp unwashed specification tag. If the tunic was repaired I would suspect the specification tag would be in worse condition then it is. Likewise it would be readily evident that the material had been added after issue. The Second Infantry disc is another odd thing.

 

Any ideas what the story is on this and why there are different types of wool used in this tunic. I do have a theory...I feel this is an end of the production line tunic that was assembled using a material the manufacturer had on hand just to finish this last tunic. As to the Second Inf. Disc., could have this soldier been one of the replacements assigned to this unit. The 41st was used as a replacement division when they arrived in France. I do have more photos of details.

[uplandmod]

It could be quite the opposite, the contact is July 1917, the month we declared war....perhaps it was the manufacturer just not being up to par with a mass influx of soldiers joining up and having to get tunics out to the enlistees....

 

Just a thought!

 

A beautiful Jacket, I love those thick wool jackets!

 

Leonardo

[Alonzo]

Detail of epaulettes, top and bottom portions

[ludwigh1980]

Super Cool with the Montana National Guard disk. Believe it or not the mixed color of material does occur with U.S. WW1 contract tunics. At least the panel of cloth matches left and right. I have a issue three button pullover ww1 shirt that is made of two colors of OD wool and one pocket flap is one color and the other flap is another. The sleaves are also each a different color. I have contract tunics that have this same issue. I think that some contractors were throwing out an enormous quantity of uniforms in a short time for the 4 million that were drafted (2 million of these that made it "over there") . Huge amount even by todays standards! And think each soldier would have been issued at least two, more if the soldier was in the trenches. Taking those number one can assume that possibly 7-8 million ww1 army tunics were made, maybe more. It was very likely issued that way from the contractor. Nice atypical 41st tunic. Seen a few with the Oregon NG disk, not a Montana disk.

 

Terry

[jprostak]

It may also be that fabric from a different batch of cloth was used and at the time the color may have been much closer than it now appears. One may have just naturally lost its color differently than the other.

[censlenov]

Great find Wes. Not something that pops up at the shows North of the 49 very often. Great show with lots of great items. Love the Montana disk sweet.

 

cheers

Chris

[Alonzo]

Just a quick note was pointed out by a friend of mine. Is it possible that the 2nd Infantry disc would be attributed to the 2nd Montana Infantry, which was part of the 41st Division??? To me this is the most logical explanation for this disc, in combination with the Montana disc.

BTW...The tunic came from a large collection of miscellaneous uniforms purchased in Edmonton Alberta...the seller was from Manitoba selling militaria at a Calgary Alberta Gun Show and the tunic is now residing in Medicine hat Alberta.

This tunic definitely got around!!!!!!!

[ludwigh1980]

Yup 2nd Montana Infantry. I had a Oregon Guard disked 41st Div tunic that had the same thing (1st or 2nd Infantry). This was typical of the Western National Guard units, typically not more than 3 or 4 regiments. I think California had more.

 

Terry

[ludwigh1980]

I think the Montana Infantry made up the 163 Infantry regiment 41st Division. I don't have a ww1 Unit history for them so I don't know how they allocated the units between the infantry regiments that made up the 41st Div. The 163rd Infantry is part of the Montana National Guard today.

[Alonzo]

I think the Montana Infantry made up the 163 Infantry regiment 41st Division. I don't have a ww1 Unit history for them so I don't know how they allocated the units between the infantry regiments that made up the 41st Div. The 163rd Infantry is part of the Montana National Guard today.

 

 

Yup x2. The 163rd was Montana's 41st Division regiment. From what I understand, through both World Wars though I cannot confirm this for WW1. I have a 41st group for a fellow in the 146th who was from Oregon...he became a pilot in a B-17, though did not make it overseas. World War One unit histories for the 41st are incredibly hard to find, if they exist. The 66th Field artillery brigade has a published history as well as one of the artillery regiments.

[Too Much WW1 Militaria]

Les,

 

A mixture of wool types and colors isn't really that unusual for WW1 uniforms. I have one here that has an OD-ish body and a mustard colored collar. I've had light weight summer tunics run from dark brown to mustard, to OD green, to tan. Figure in 1917, our standing army was smaller than most of the Balkans states. We ramped up in a hurry, and used all sorts of sub-contractors producing for the military. When it comes to WW1 US, the standard is that there is no standard! LOL As for the collar discs, all the possibilities mentioned above are possible. The thing about the 41st is that it was used as a replacement division. I just sold a dual patched tunic on E-Bay that had both a 7th Division and 41st Division SSI on it. As far as the collar disc goes, I lean towards the Montana Infantry theory. Those pre-war guys had a lot of pride in their outfits, and he probably didn't change the disc when they were federalized. You will also see some WW1 tunics with rank on both sleeves, once again, an old hand who didn't change to the new regs.

 

John

[RelicHunter99]

I have a officers medical belt of a man who served in the Montana National Guard prior to the war. The 2nd Montana Infantry (what is on your collar disk) became part of the 163rd Infantry Regiment of the 41st Division.

What is odd is that he still has the collar disks of his Montana regiment, but has the 41st Division patch (which wouldn't have been implemented until the end of the war).

 

I also find it odd that 41st Division patches exist in any number at all, since most of these soldiers would have been transferred to other divisions once they got to France.

[uplandmod]

Funny that you mention the WWI pullover, I suddenly remember the one I had was also made up of different colors of wool fabric. Recently my friend picked up a WWI with cut edges for the patch pockets, seams etc....this tunic looks awful, really no kind of real effort to make a nice looking jacket/tunic. In fact that I saw tag in it that said 1918 almost made me think it was a really bad repo but it was real.

 

The US declared war in July 1917, our troops didn't arrive/start fighting until July 1918 and the war ended four months later. Figuring that we had to clothe so many troops in such a short time I'm sure there are many uniforms out there that don't look up to par.

 

Leonardo

[RelicHunter99]

The US declared war in July 1917, our troops didn't arrive/start fighting until July 1918 and the war ended four months later. Figuring that we had to clothe so many troops in such a short time I'm sure there are many uniforms out there that don't look up to par.

 

Not to nitpick too much, but we declared in mid April of 1917, and our first troops arrived in June of 1917. The first major fighting was in June of 1918.

[GIl Sanow]

I would suggest that there are several issues here, mostly dealing with HOW uniforms were assembled. First of all it must be pointed out that the US purchased the last remaining wool supplies in the world when we declared war. Other nations had been fighting almost 3 years and they had used up much already. Secondly, we had used German-made chemical dies before the war, but that was no longer available and we had to formulate vegetable dyes as a substitute. Not all of them matched, nor did they match the old German dyes.

 

Next, we do not usually understand how manufacturing was done. It was done by seamstresses, often at home. They were given pre-cut fabric pieces, cut in the factory with saws in numerous layers at once. The government provided the material, including thread, buttons, etc. Anyhow, coat fronts were made by some women, sleeves by others, and backs, linings, etc., by others. They were paid on a piece-work basis. Each section had individual tags with multiple parts -- what we call 'cutter's tags'. As the piece was completed, part of the tag was removed and saved, then it was turned in later for payment.

 

In the end, all of the major sub-assemblies were put together for the final coat, and the garment was inspected.

 

So, what does this have to do with anything? Well, I suspect somewhere along the line as this coat was put together, the original batch of wool was exhausted and a new batch was introduced. I suspect there was a definite way they cut out pieces so as to reduce waste, so certain parts were more likely to match each other than the whole.

 

Given the need for production, mismatching was not uncommon. Still, it looks like some effort was made to keep the mismatched parts on this coat somewhat symetrical.

 

I would also point out that for every doughboy overseas, there had to be THREE coats -- the one on his back, one in supply for reissue and one in transit. Given the number of coats made and shipped, I am not at all surprised that this coat exists. Certainly there were many more. Perhaps other could share their odd examples.

[uplandmod]

Not to nitpick too much, but we declared in mid April of 1917, and our first troops arrived in June of 1917. The first major fighting was in June of 1918.

No nit picking : ) basically what i was trying to say we only had a little over a year to enlist millions of men and get them overseas. Yes, we had troops there sooner but it took a year to get enough trained troop to actually get to combat stregth to actually fight the Germans.

 

I havent checked my dates in a while so thanks!

Leonardo

[AustinO]

Great tunic to a scarce unit! Are there three chevrons on the lower sleeve?

[Alonzo]

Great tunic to a scarce unit! Are there three chevrons on the lower sleeve?

 

 

Yes, they are bullion and there are three of them.

Check out "My Mini Museum" thread under Displays. I think there are a few pics of more 41st Division WW1 tunics in "The Rack".

 

 

Thanks everyone for your comments!!!!

[BigJohn#3RD]

Great Tunic and Fantastic Discussion.

Regards,

John