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Thai made patches---Vietnam era or post?


all-bull
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Hello everyone,

I have always been curious if patches made like this were surplus left over from Vietnam or if they were post-Vn made. They are much stiffer than most period made examples. These particular ones came indirectly from Tom Clinton. So, were these patches being sold in shops, or patches made exclusively for collectors after the war? I believe our friend Bob has been to Thailand during this post war period, so I am hoping he might can weigh in as well. I also know patches are still being made in Thailand this way, at least about ten years ago, and were made like this during the war/immediate post as well. Is there any way to tell differences?

 

The vast majority of period Thai made patches would be USAF units, so I am just wondering if perhaps units were still over there, had patches made, or if these type ones were just unused/unsold during the war? Any help would be great, and I want to thank everyone for all their help in the past, present, and future on this forum. Thanks!

 

Hunter

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I have patches that also came from Tom Clinton that are made in a similar manner. Wide mesh backing and very stiff from the glue on the back, cut edge, machine or sewing machine embroidered.

 

The last USAF permanent party units left Thailand in 1976.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States...rce_in_Thailand

 

I've never been able to narrow down if the patches that Tom brought back were left overs or were made for collectors.

 

With some of the Thai made patches, especially the hand embroidered ones, you can see differences in the wartime made ones vs. the post war. There was an article in ASMIC some years ago about the ones with the white cloth backs that covered the reverse threads. You could clearly see the difference in the amount of detail and the care that was put into executing the design.

 

With these machine sewn ones it is harder to tell.

 

The detail on the one with the aircraft looks a bit bland to me, so I suspect these are post war.

 

Now, in talking to an Air Force Special Operations collector, units kept the addresses of the patch shops and were ordering patches from Thailand well into the 1980's and perhaps beyond. Every now and then you will find a Thai made USAF patch for a unit that was never stationed there, or a design that just does not make sense for the Vietnam period.

 

I treasure my Tom Clinton patches, including the ones I bought directly from him at a Houston show. He was pretty pricey by the time I got to him, but I have kept these for years. Once in awhile you will see them on the market.

 

By the way, I am curious as to why a C-130E would be anywhere near Hanoi. The air defense network was considered one of the best in the world. If they could take down an F-4 or B-52, what chance did a C-130 of any model have? I am not saying it didn't happen, but it is worth researching. But I sure would not have wanted to be on one of those crews.

Second_to_none_small.jpg

second_to_none_back_scan_small.jpg

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vintageproductions

According to TD, Tom's son, Tom never had any of these made in Thailand. He just bought what he found there.

I know Tom has been accused of making these, but I believe TD when he says they didn't make them.

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The first US aircraft that landed at Hanoi's airport was a C-130E in support of the arrival of the C-141's that were to follow and pick up our POWs held by North Vietnam in 1973. I had a shield shape missions type patch that had C-130 Pathfinder on it and was Operation Homecoming related. The patch has long been sold but was close in construction to the C-130E ones posted.

 

Can't say if these are period made or not, but I'd say they are Operation Homecoming related.

 

Steve

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I've had that same C-130 set, and circulated them amongst some folks that "know". Without getting into details because people may take it personal and I'm not into drama, these were supposedly made after the war. I'll leave it at that.

Randy

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The first US aircraft that landed at Hanoi's airport was a C-130E in support of the arrival of the C-141's that were to follow and pick up our POWs held by North Vietnam in 1973. I had a shield shape missions type patch that had C-130 Pathfinder on it and was Operation Homecoming related. The patch has long been sold but was close in construction to the C-130E ones posted.

 

Can't say if these are period made or not, but I'd say they are Operation Homecoming related.

 

Steve

 

Steve,

 

Mystery solved! Makes perfect sense.

 

Thinking about it I was wondering if they were there as something to do with the peace negotiations. Thanks for this clarification.

 

Randy,

 

Thanks for your comments as well.

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  • 3 years later...
Patchcollector

The first US aircraft that landed at Hanoi's airport was a C-130E in support of the arrival of the C-141's that were to follow and pick up our POWs held by North Vietnam in 1973. I had a shield shape missions type patch that had C-130 Pathfinder on it and was Operation Homecoming related. The patch has long been sold but was close in construction to the C-130E ones posted.

 

Can't say if these are period made or not, but I'd say they are Operation Homecoming related.

 

Steve

 

 

I have some of these patches and I've always believed that they are "Special Operations" related.The "Combat Talon" program produced very specialized C-130E aircraft that were nicknamed "Blackbirds",which would account for the patch on the top left in post #1 having a black C-130.C-130's were never normally painted black,but some of the "Blackbirds" were.They flew missions in North Vietnam,hence the "Hanoi" on the patches.Also,I believe that the object protruding from the C-130 on the patch on the top right is a crude representation of the Fulton Recovery System,which some of the "Blackbirds" had.I know it's supposed to be "forked" but sometimes the Asian patchmakers just did'nt get it right.Or,it could be symbolic of a "Talon".

 

 

Here is a link to more info on the "Blackbirds":

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_MC-130

 

 

Also,like some other the other posters have already stated,I believe the patches shown in post # 1 to be authentic wartime made.

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I must have missed this thread when it was first started. Having looked at Tom's collection after his passing all I Could say was Wow. He was a prolific collector. Tom Jr related a story about patch buying on one particular trip to Thailand. While looking for old patch and tailor shops one day they decided to venture on to a Thai military base. At some point they were stopped by an angry looking NCO wanting to know what business they had on his base.

 

Once they had made it clear what they were doing he settled down a bit but told them they must leave the base. He did also ask them for their hotel location. Well the next day this same NCO showed up at the hotel with his brother or brother in law who had been in the tailoring and patch business during the war. The brother had brought a car load of stuff to the hotel to sell them. Old dead stock that both he and the NCO were quite happy to be selling.

 

Tom had also said that whenever in an area looking they would let the locals know and usually people would track them down with stuff to sell.

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The first US aircraft that landed at Hanoi's airport was a C-130E in support of the arrival of the C-141's that were to follow and pick up our POWs held by North Vietnam in 1973. I had a shield shape missions type patch that had C-130 Pathfinder on it and was Operation Homecoming related. The patch has long been sold but was close in construction to the C-130E ones posted.

 

Can't say if these are period made or not, but I'd say they are Operation Homecoming related.

 

Steve

 

I happened to be discussing this with someone today, and came across this website about the C-130E support aircraft deployed for Operation Homecoming.

 

http://c141heaven.info/dotcom/66/homecoming.php

Homecoming 1.jpg

HOmecoming 2.jpg

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nguoi tien su

The C-130s were also used to transport NVA elements between Hanoi and Saigon from 1973 until the very end of the war, that is early 1975.

 

To me those patches are war time made.

 

Here is a rare example with a similar background (the unit was inactivated in 1971).

 

 

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The C-130s were also used to transport NVA elements between Hanoi and Saigon from 1973 until the very end of the war, that is early 1975.

 

To me those patches are war time made.

 

Here is a rare example with a similar background (the unit was inactivated in 1971).

 

 

 

C-130s transporting the NVA to Saigon? What is the story on that? As for patch construction, that same netting backing was used for years after the war on Thai AF patches, so that doesn't mean a whole lot. Look at the red area, there's a difference there from the wartime mission shields. I have yet to get a patch from an active participant made like these. People can believe however they chose, but I will pass on these every time.

 

Randy

 

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Patchcollector

 

C-130s transporting the NVA to Saigon? What is the story on that? As for patch construction, that same netting backing was used for years after the war on Thai AF patches, so that doesn't mean a whole lot. Look at the red area, there's a difference there from the wartime mission shields. I have yet to get a patch from an active participant made like these. People can believe however they chose, but I will pass on these every time.

 

Randy

 

 

 

Yes,we did indeed assist in transporting "VIP's" around 'Nam at,or near the end of the war,and some were North Vietnamese.It's been awhile since I read about it,but IIRC the planes were painted white,or some other bright color,and I think were also smaller than a 130.I have never seen any patches for this "unit" though.

 

I still believe that the best explanation for the top two patches in post # 1 is the "Blackbirds" Special Operations Aircraft,that flew missions in North Vietnam.

 

I found this reference online:

 

"If there is an intriguing C-130 mission, it would have to be COMBAT TALON, the MC-130E/H Combat Talon I/II mission of the Air Force Special Operations Command. For the sinister looking black camouflage and beetle-nose of the SOF birds lend a special air to them and their mission."

 

 

Here's a link to the site where I found the reference:

 

http://9websites.com/airforce/blackbrd.htm

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The C-130s were also used to transport NVA elements between Hanoi and Saigon from 1973 until the very end of the war, that is early 1975.

 

To me those patches are war time made.

 

Here is a rare example with a similar background (the unit was inactivated in 1971).

 

 

 

The question is not whether they were Thai made or not. The question is when they were made.

 

Thai patch shops continued to operate into the 1980's. They often used the same or similar materials that were used during the war.

 

There was a very good ASMIC article a few years back that contrasted the wartime made patches with the post war patches. Typically the design details were different, and the quality was reduced.

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Flying missions over North Vietnam is not the same as flying over Hanoi. A C-130 of any type would not have lasted very long anywhere near the air defense network that surrounded Hanoi.

 

More likely, a mission patch for an MC-130E would have been marked "North Vietnam" rather than Hanoi.

 

The other thing that makes these less than likely candidates for Combat Talon is they are marked C-130E. Combat Talon flew MC-130E. The flight crews would have most likely insisted on the correct aircraft designation on their patches, similar to this one which recently sold on eBay.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VIETNAM-THEATER-MADE-USAF-PATCH-15TH-AIR-COMMANDO-SQUADRON-MC-130E-COMBAT-TALON-/201328381062?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee01b4c86

 

They certainly did so in later years for the MC-130H and P programs.

 

http://www.usafpatches.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?search=MC-130&submit=search&album=search&title=on&newer_than=&caption=on&older_than=&keywords=on&type=AND

 

F4 100 Da Nang.jpg

USAF 15th ACS Combat Talon a 2.jpg

USAF 15th ACS Combat Talon 2.jpg

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nguoi tien su

Yes Randy, I do speak about missions flown after the repatriation of the POWs.

 

Those missions are documented in the highly detailed “Tactical Airlift” by Bowers (1983 – Office of the Air Force History). As part of the 1973 peace agreement, the USAF provided transport of the NVA delegations bound to SVN, once a week. The C-130s were those of the 374th TAW and were camouflaged. The last mission was flown on 25 April 1975 by a crew of the 345th TAS.

 

The Air University Review of Sept-Oct. 1977 deals with those missions under the Title “Negotiating with the enemy” and details a flight of June 1973, three months after Homecoming.

 

That was also part of the Four Party Joint Military Commission, while dealing with the research for the unaccounted for.

 

We can thus consider that the “C-130 Hanoi” patch may have been produced at least from 1973 to 1975. How about later, I have no idea. But who would be able to tell the difference between a 1974 and a 1977 production of the same patch? I really think they are new old stock.

 

Gil, I am not a big fan of the 15th ACS patch shown above. A big series of similar patches were sold recently and the making is weird (at least to me).

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Francois-

 

OK, it sounded like the where transporting the NV Army troops, not some delegation. Again, addressing the time frame of manufacture, I have never (and I have 100s as you've seen) received anything like these from a vet. This, coupled with what I've been told since the 80s, leads me to believe they are post-war made. Nor have I seen one worn. I can't (and won't) say if these were done at Clinton's request, or if they saw him coming and ran them off to take advantage of the situation. I know SEA led to a zillion variations, but something has always been suspicious with these, and I'm not the only one that thinks that. I also agree about the authenticity question of the MC-130 patch Gil posted. I think it was just to show what an MC-130 patch design would look like so people don't get even more off-base trying to make the OP ones even more desirable. Any C-130 over Hanoi operating in a combat situation wouldn't stand a chance. Back then it had the heaviest air defense system in the world.

 

Randy

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Patchcollector

Flying missions over North Vietnam is not the same as flying over Hanoi. A C-130 of any type would not have lasted very long anywhere near the air defense network that surrounded Hanoi.

 

More likely, a mission patch for an MC-130E would have been marked "North Vietnam" rather than Hanoi.

 

The other thing that makes these less than likely candidates for Combat Talon is they are marked C-130E. Combat Talon flew MC-130E. The flight crews would have most likely insisted on the correct aircraft designation on their patches, similar to this one which recently sold on eBay.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VIETNAM-THEATER-MADE-USAF-PATCH-15TH-AIR-COMMANDO-SQUADRON-MC-130E-COMBAT-TALON-/201328381062?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee01b4c86

 

They certainly did so in later years for the MC-130H and P programs.

 

http://www.usafpatches.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?search=MC-130&submit=search&album=search&title=on&newer_than=&caption=on&older_than=&keywords=on&type=AND

 

 

 

Hi Gil you make some good points.However,the only C-130's that I have ever seen painted black were the "Blackbirds".If anyone can post a photo or provide information that shows another Vietnam war era unit using C-130's that are black please post them here.

How to explain the "appendage" sticking out from the front of the plane in the top right patch in post #1?The closest thing that I have ever seen to this is the Fulton Recovery System rig that was placed on the front of the Aircraft.Yes I know that there should be two instead of one,but I am guessing that this is an error made by the patchmaker who most likely never saw a Fulton Recovery System setup.

If anyone has any better explanation for what is sticking out from the front of the plane,I would welcome any input.

As far as the C-130's not flying over Hanoi,from what little I have read about the Blackbirds,they flew all over North Vietnam on supersecret missions.They may have gone up into China at times.Their planes were outfitted with the latest electronic countermeasures so that they could go wherever they had to go to for rescues and resupply of teams in North Vietnam.

 

 

BTW,I found this reference to a C-130 over Hanoi:

Terry McCarty, 10.03.2011

"I was a KC130F flight mech for 2 1/2 years at VMGR 252 (Cherry Point N.C.) 1966-1969) and flight engineer VMGR 152 (Fatima/Da nang) into early 1970. My crew personally flew the last US Marines (load crew and fork lift) out of Quang Tre and Dong Ha. We just left everything as is for the Cong as we with drew. NOT GOOD!!! I recorded over 3,000 hrs in the bird and enough points for 5 air medals. We refueled over Hanoi and dropped flares at night to support Helicopters and downed aircraft retraction. Loved this bird. Wanted to be a pilot but the Col. said that enough Officers wanted flight school so I was SOL. Should have stayed in the Reserves, for an other retirement and maybe my pilot wings. Stayed in the air every hop that was available. Great air plane, that protected us for every mission. Semper Fi"

If Marine KC-130F's were flying over Hanoi,then I would suppose that the Blackbirds were too.

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The C-130 with the "appendage" in the first pic also is done in white, has only 2 engines and a cockpit large enough for 10 pilots. In other words, not very accurate and the poorest rendition I've seen yet. Just because the other patch has a black 130 silhouette does not mean the unit's planes were black. I have lots of aircraft patches with the silhouettes done in various colors that have nothing to do with how the aircraft are painted. As far as the "account" posted above, refueling helicopters over Hanoi in a 130 where even Mach 2 fighters were routinely shot down? Everything on the net isn't true. The central point is the fact these are suspect in timeframe. Trying to tie them into a sexy mission with what looks like a ludicrous story (given the air defense capabilities at the time) is only deviating from whether these are authentic to begin with.

 

Randy

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Patchcollector

When I post here on the Forum I always strive to find either visual or anecdotal evidence to back up my points.You,on the other hand,have provided nothing in substance to back up yours,choosing instead to ignore the obvious(plane color and "appendage),and dismissing a Veterans statement as a lie.
I haven't even addressed the "real or not" point that you keep driving at(again without any proof) because most collectors believe that these are from the pre 1975 timeframe.
It appears that you seem to be the only one in this thread that believes that they are not.

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These posts are not for you. You've demonstrated an obvious close-mindedness to anything that does not fit your thoughts. You've even told a retired vet from the 1141 thread what his job was when he tried to be helpful. I posted on this against my better judgment, but my intent was not to get you to see anything, it was to ensure others saw a different point before accepting yours as the only way. For all your "anecdotal evidence", nothing proves these are what you wish them to be. Additionally, I never said the "vet's" story was a lie, I said I don't believe everything I read on the net I true. Brian Williams has a lot of imitators out there. As a 26 year vet myself, and active collector for 30 plus years, I might just know a little something. I try to share it to help others and ask for nothing in return. That doesn't mean I have all the answers. But, as this is a discussion forum and if see something I feel needs additional info, I may supply it so others can have it as well to compare and think about. You can either open your mind to it or dig in your heels and close more doors as folks move on from a one-sided input topic and leave good info off the table.

Randy

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