Service Coat, 1919, Nat. Guard

[37thguy]

Picked this up at our local show yesterday. I only buy ID'd pieces, usually, but I found this one too interesting to resist.

 

Dated March 20, 1919. It has black buttons, Type IB collar discs and two O/S chevrons. Those things make it appear to be WW1.

 

That's were the WW1 connection seems to end. It has 20's era Sgt.'s chevrons as well as two hash marks on the sleeve. One has the Reg. Army background, the other, National Guard. Also interesting in that it has been tailored. The lining is sewn down around the pockets.

 

My guess is the guy stayed in after WW1 and joined the Guard. Thus the two different hash marks on the sleeve, one for his RA days in WW1, the other for post war time in the Guard.

 

The other thought would be that he was RA for Mexico, pre WW1, and has the NG hash mark for his time in WW1, along with his two O/s chevrons.

 

Any ideas?

[37thguy]

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[J_Andrews]

It would not be "RA", rather it would be "Federal Service"

 

Hashmarks were one per ENLISTMENT, i.e. three years (or was it FOUR in those days?).

 

The Mex Service Medal COULD cover any stint between 1911 and 1917, but the more specific Mex Expedition (Punitive Campaign) was only 11 months long.

 

And though the uniform was MADE in 1919, it might not have been issued until a later year. The open-collar revision was 1924 (IIRC?), but maybe the NG converted later (often a 2-3 yr lag on such things). The NG units began reconstituting (in State service) in 1921, but many were not fully organized (at least fully enough to gain Federal Recognition) until 1924.

[37thguy]

IIRC hash marks were for three years service. Also I think the ONG was the first state to be fully organized and recognized in the early 20's. Odd that if it were a 1919 that was issued later, the collar discs would be the Type II Gilt, or possibly the blacked ones, I have both in my collection for the 37th Division.

[patches]

It would be in late 1926 the the coats were changed from choker collars to open notched lapels. it was also around this time that the Service stripes appeared if I'm not mistaken.

[37thguy]

It would be in late 1926 the the coats were changed from chocker collars to open notched lapels. it was also around this time that the Service stripes appeared if I'm not mistaken.

 

OK so how do I explain this coat? :think:

[dave peifer]

37th guy........i believe the darkened buttons and insignia remained until 1923.they changed to bright buttons and insg.retaining the stand up collar until the revision to lapel collar in 1926.this is only my timeline i use so i believe this jkt would have been worn through 1923........hope this helps..........dave

[GIl Sanow]

37th guy........i believe the darkened buttons and insignia remained until 1923.they changed to bright buttons and insg.retaining the stand up collar until the revision to lapel collar in 1926.this is only my timeline i use so i believe this jkt would have been worn through 1923........hope this helps..........dave

 

 

GREAT JACKET! I saw this just as Mark was purchasing it and would have bought it myself if he had not.

 

I have never before seen an NG hashmark on any coat, though I do have an unsewn example. Only in the WW2 era Nat'l Geographic -- the one with all of the insignia -- have I ever seen it illustrated.

 

I concur that the black background hashmark is Federal service, so perhaps the period recognized could go as early as Mexican Border service, followed by WW1.

Perhaps he was in the Regular Army, then joined the ONG.

 

I suspect that the changeover to gilt insignia and buttons was not nearly as speedy in the NG as it was in the RA, and the RA in fact authorized the blackened bronze items to be polished bright (bronze) initially before the gilt insignia was issued.

 

The actual issue of the roll collar "1926" coats to EM's is a bit of a misnomer. No specification was written for these before 1930(!), so if they wore the new style, it was because they had their coats converted or privately purchased them. [Officers seem to have changed more promptly.]

 

I would date this example as pre-1924, but possibly worn later. No one has mentioned the 1919 pattern chevrons worn on both sides. I really doubt the ONG got them that early, especially given that they were not fully organized that early.

 

G

[patches]

As Gil alludes to, the NG in the 1920s up till 1940 ( Basicaly throughout the balance of the 20th Century) was notorious for lagging behind the regular Army in receiving some of the newer or updated uniforms, insignias and equipment items, sometimes even weapons, see the Illinios NG at the democratic convention in the summer of 1968, or even later, the Ohio NG at Kent state in May 1970, here, their carrying the M1 Garand, and M2 Carbines still. I would also say that Gil's observations are the best in dating this very fine coat of yours.

[everforward]

As Gil alludes to, the NG in the 1920s up till 1940 ( Basicaly throughout the balance of the 20th Century) was notorious for lagging behind the regular Army in receiving some of the newer or updated uniforms, insignias and equipment items, sometimes even weapons......

 

+1.

 

The Virginia National Guard was no different, there is evidence to support what was said above in the various yearbooks and other publications printed of the Va. troops from 1923 until 1941.

 

The 29th Division did have M1 Garands in 1940.

[patches]

+1.

 

The Virginia National Guard was no different, there is evidence to support what was said above in the various yearbooks and other publications printed of the Va. troops from 1923 until 1941.

 

The 29th Division did have M1 Garands in 1940.

 

Yes good point out with the Blue&Gray using M1 in that year, I seen photos of a parade with the troops carring the M1.