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Garry Owen patch


oddmod
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Hi.

 

My name is Jason, and I don't know much about patches.

 

But I just bought this Garry Owen patch from another Forum member recently, and wanted to use it to learn something about patches.

 

The seller indicated that he believed it was US made VN era patch. Another respected Forum member remarked on the listing page that it was German made.

 

So, what is it?

 

And how do you tell.

 

Thanks.

JC

post-5673-1333051368.jpg

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Proud Kraut

Not 100% sure, because this very nice patch shows some signs of wear. I would say that this patch was made in Germany in the 1950's/1960's, when the 7th Cavalry was stationed in Germany (Bamberg) with 3rd InfDiv. The "basket wave" of the white thread on the back is similar to many German made patches I have seen from that era.

 

Lars

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It's embroidery style is strongly reminiscent of insignia made in Germany. But that style of embroidery could be shared by machinery located in other countries. There is currently a thread running about German made patches being used in Vietnam. It's a useful read. Vietnam era DOES NOT mean used in Vietnam. Vietnam era was a span of time measured differently by different nations who were involved in the various conflicts in Vietnam over many years. The last two significant periods were when the French tried to subdue the country when it rebelled against French rule. The 50's. Then, a period which ran from the very late 50's until the early 70's, the USA tried to help the South Vietnamese fend off the communist led North from gaining control of the country. So some patch, made in Germany and worn there, would be a Vietnam era patch. Elements of the 7th Cavalry did serve in Vietnam. There are quite a number of 7th Cavalry units that have served a great number of places at various times. As pointed out above, they served in Germany at a specific time. Serving in the 60's can be construed as "Vietnam era".

How do you tell? Without a definitive provenance, it's just a German made patch.

 

IH

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Proud Kraut

Right! IMHO this particular pocket patch looks rather German made than US made. Can't say exactly if pre VN era or very early VN era.

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Here is something you can use to gauge your patch. These two pics are from the 110th Transportation Company, Light Helicopter, stationed in Germany from 1958 to 1963. This is researched and proven fact. If you compare the details and the weave of this patch to your Garry Owen patch you can see the near identical construction of each. Now could your patch have been made prior to 1958? Maybe. Could it have been made post 1963? Maybe. Things can get fuzzy with this. Someone who wants to embellish the value of the patch my lean to say it was worn in the "Vietnam era". He may be right. Without provenance this one is too broad to nail down.

With what has been revealed here by a couple of folks, you can come to your own conclusion.

 

IH

 

post-12336-1333059165.jpgpost-12336-1333059182.jpg

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It's embroidery style is strongly reminiscent of insignia made in Germany. But that style of embroidery could be shared by machinery located in other countries. There is currently a thread running about German made patches being used in Vietnam. It's a useful read. Vietnam era DOES NOT mean used in Vietnam. Vietnam era was a span of time measured differently by different nations who were involved in the various conflicts in Vietnam over many years. The last two significant periods were when the French tried to subdue the country when it rebelled against French rule. The 50's. Then, a period which ran from the very late 50's until the early 70's, the USA tried to help the South Vietnamese fend off the communist led North from gaining control of the country. So some patch, made in Germany and worn there, would be a Vietnam era patch. Elements of the 7th Cavalry did serve in Vietnam. There are quite a number of 7th Cavalry units that have served a great number of places at various times. As pointed out above, they served in Germany at a specific time. Serving in the 60's can be construed as "Vietnam era".

How do you tell? Without a definitive provenance, it's just a German made patch.

 

IH

 

 

 

 

Excellent point in regard to the use of the term "VN era", by that standard I think the Chinese & the Japanese can also lay claim to having their own "VN era".

 

I want to make clear that the Forum member I purchased this from wasn't trying to pass this off as a US in Vietnam War patch. Actually going back and reading my messages, he felt it was US made prior to 1968... so perhaps it is actually German made prior to 1968...

 

The term "VN ERA" is my own language.

 

I bought the patch 1) because it is interesting, and 2) because like I said, I want to learn more about patches.

 

So it sounds to me like one of the first parts of determining where a patch was made is to find out where a particular unit was stationed during a particular time frame. For example a WW2 5th AF patch will most likely be Australian made, where as an 8th AF would most likely be British made. Correct?

 

And then the next thing is to decipher the stitch pattern... that sounds about as easy to me as telling the difference between tiger stripe camo patterns.

 

Proud Kraut, good eye on this patch having been used before ... I just noticed a little bit of thread from where it had been previously sewn on a uniform.

 

Thanks,

JC

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A contact of mine has weighed in with fact: 3/7 Cav was the Division Cav for the 3rd ID in Germany from 1965-1970. So, it is possible that the patch which looks German made could possibly HAVE been made in that time period which is "Vietnam era". The war in Vietnam with US involvement was underway. So it still remains supposition but the patch could have been worn during the Vietnam era. But given the demonstrated spread of when the patch COULD have been made it's a he said-she said thing and really doesn't change the fact that it's a nicely made insignia.

Yes, it's helpful to become knowledgeable of unit history when looking at insignia. What years in what countries is good basis. Over time, many styles of patch making become discernible- full embroidered, embroidered on twill, loom, computer driven can all be used to roughly date insignia. You don't learn over night, but you can learn.

 

IH

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So it sounds to me like one of the first parts of determining where a patch was made is to find out where a particular unit was stationed during a particular time frame. For example a WW2 5th AF patch will most likely be Australian made, where as an 8th AF would most likely be British made. Correct?

 

And then the next thing is to decipher the stitch pattern... that sounds about as easy to me as telling the difference between tiger stripe camo patterns.

 

Proud Kraut, good eye on this patch having been used before ... I just noticed a little bit of thread from where it had been previously sewn on a uniform.

 

Thanks,

JC

JC, it seems as though your real question has been lost in the discussion of the meaning of "Vietnam era". I would not assume that a unit's patch was made wherever they were stationed. Instead, I think it would make more sense to assume that a patch is made in the USA first, because our soldiers didn't ship out without patches on their uniforms. Also, most insignia were acquired through the normal supply channels which ultimately lead right back to the USA. However, as you will learn there are always exceptions to the rule. A unit reassignment, change of insignia, unit out of patches while overseas, normal supply channels too slow, etc., are some reasons for the variations you might find. As you learn more through places like this forum and other collectors and their collections, books, the internet, etc. you will begin to find patches with very significant and distinct embroidery styles and materials used in their manufacture. When you do, then it becomes more critical to determine the country of origin in order to weed out the fakes from the authentic patches. There are some embroidery styles that

have become clear over the years to help identify eras as well as country of manufacture. USA, England, Australian, Mediteranian, Japan, Vietnam, Tailand, hand embroidered, machine made are just some of the obvious differences in styles that with more experience get easier and easier to identify. As you gain that knowledge, it increases your odds of not purchasing something you thought was something else. For example, you might take a closer look at a 5 th AAF patch that looks like it was made in England. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but should raise the proverbial "red flag" before you go spending your money on it. My area of collecting is WW2-KW USN & USMC squadron patches, so I'm most familiar with those eras and origins of manufacture. One thing I have noticed in the very little amount of attention that I've paid to patches manufactured in Germany is that they (or at least the ones that I've seen) appear to be manufactured just like the ones in the USA. There are a lot of collectors on here that can probably tell you what the difference is, but I cannot. My advice is simply to view or handle as many different patches as you can and get some quality reference books to learn more about telling the differences in manufacture, era and origin. There is no substitute for your own research aside from taking someone else's word for it. I'm no expert by any means, but I'm always gaining more knowledge and experience when it comes to the items I collect. Hope this was helpful. Good luck to you. Jeffro

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Not 100% sure, because this very nice patch shows some signs of wear. I would say that this patch was made in Germany in the 1950's/1960's, when the 7th Cavalry was stationed in Germany (Bamberg) with 3rd InfDiv. The "basket wave" of the white thread on the back is similar to many German made patches I have seen from that era.

 

Lars

Looks made in the USA to me as does the patch in post #6. The same weave is found on most USA machine embroidered patches from the 1950s. Isn't this more indicative of the type of embroidery machines available to manufacturers of the era than the country of origin? What is it that indicates German manufacture to you? Jeffro

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THIS JUST HANDED TO ME.

 

It would appear that the 3rd Squadron 7th Cavalry's history in west Germany goes back a little further than 1963, it was reorganised under CARS in 1957 as the 3rd Reconaissance Squadron 7th Cavalry and assigned to the 10th Infantry Division, then posted in and around Würzburg, when the 10th Infantry Division was sent home to be deactivated in April 1958, the 3rd Infantry Division fresh from it's post at Fort Benning, Georgia tooks it's place, with the 3rd Reconaissance Squadron aperantly remaining behind and became part of the 3rd Division, and has been with them ever since. In 1963/64 the unit simply droped the Reconaissance in it's designator, like all Divisional Cavalry Recon Squadrons Army wide.

 

So there now is a very good chance that this pocket patch was made not only in West Germany as suspected , but worn in the late 50s early 60s, even when it was 3rd RN SQN 7th Cav with the 10th Division, the 10th Division of the mid to late 50s is on the record as a unit that worn pocket patches for practically every unit organic to it, the 3rd Division ? well not that much.

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A CONTACT OF MINE, thats thrice you mention him, I think thats cool, who is he DEEP THROAT :lol: a former Defense Department Official you meet in Garages in DC :lol:

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Proud Kraut

@ Jason: Concerning your question: "Where was it made". I received validations from two other collectors, specialized in collecting German made patches. Your patch was made in Germany.

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Ok, so it looks like we have nailed this down to being a German made patch, from a relatively specific time period. Thanks to every one for their input and information.

 

I personally haven't had cause to say this recently, so I'll say it now; This is a fine example of what makes this Forum so interesting and vital. Collectors with different backgrounds, areas of experience and interest, probably wildly different 'world views', coming together, in a generally civil manner, to share information in the interest of a mutual hobby and/or all consuming obsession... usually backed with historical facts.

 

So once again, Thank you.

 

Getting back to one of my original questions, how do you tell where something is made, Jeffro makes the point that lots of experience and exposure helps a great deal, and I'd agree 100%. But barring years of hands on experience is there no simple rule of thumb like, German made patches all have thread running this direction //// or that \\\\\ direction, or patches from Japan will have a weave pattern that looks something like this \/\/\/\/\/\/, or they will use silk thread.... I guess that is what I should ask, do patches from different countries, generally speaking, share similar and unique traits that are easily identifiable from country to country ? And what are they? (easy question, I know)

 

JC

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Different styles of doing embroidery can be a starting point. Machine made embroidery is distinctly different than hand done embroidery. Hand done embroidery can vary from area to area, say Vietnamese embroidery is different than Chinese is different than English is different than European is different than Pakistan and so on. Having the patches made in the various places is about the only way you learn to see the subtleties. Machine made insignia varies from time period to type to country of origin. All of these things can impact the way the finished product comes out. And machinery invented and produced in one place can often be sold and exported to different countries. Some places just seem to retain certain styles and without an education in the construction of the machinery it's difficult to pass on the recognition to someone else. A few different types of machines are loom, zigzag, broadweave and different types of computer run machines. The computer run machines started out as tape driven but nowadays it's much more sophisticated and the needle work is impressive. Sometimes things are just easy to identify, like Japanese made patches that have the label on the back that says "Ace Novelty". But where did the machinery come from? Is it Japanese home brew or imported from the USA?

In the short of it, there is no quick and easy thing that can be passed on from one person to another. You are doomed to learning as you go!

 

IH

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Different styles of doing embroidery can be a starting point. Machine made embroidery is distinctly different than hand done embroidery. Hand done embroidery can vary from area to area, say Vietnamese embroidery is different than Chinese is different than English is different than European is different than Pakistan and so on. Having the patches made in the various places is about the only way you learn to see the subtleties. Machine made insignia varies from time period to type to country of origin. All of these things can impact the way the finished product comes out. And machinery invented and produced in one place can often be sold and exported to different countries. Some places just seem to retain certain styles and without an education in the construction of the machinery it's difficult to pass on the recognition to someone else. A few different types of machines are loom, zigzag, broadweave and different types of computer run machines. The computer run machines started out as tape driven but nowadays it's much more sophisticated and the needle work is impressive. Sometimes things are just easy to identify, like Japanese made patches that have the label on the back that says "Ace Novelty". But where did the machinery come from? Is it Japanese home brew or imported from the USA?

In the short of it, there is no quick and easy thing that can be passed on from one person to another. You are doomed to learning as you go!

 

IH

 

Well there we go, an answer I can sink my teeth into.

Doomed to Learn the Loom.

Got it.

Thanks.

JC

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@Jason: Maybe this thread can give you an impression of how difficult the " what was made when and where?" discussion can be...

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...0made%20patches

 

Lars

 

 

Lars,

 

Thanks for the link... I haven't had much extra time the past few days, but when I get the chance, I look forward to reading through it.

 

JC

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