USAAC/USAAF trousers belt buckles with branch logos

[Gregory]

Hello,

 

Could you help me please with small historic detail certainly well known for those of you interested in the uniform regulations? The subject is the USAAC/USAAF trousers belt buckle other than EM variant, i.e. the buckle with a plate where winged propeller logo is mounted.

 

I am not sure what color is ranked higher in your armed forces heraldry -- silver or golden -- if 2nd Lt. bar is golden but 1st Lt. is silver? Looks like silver color is more important but maybe I am wrong.

 

WWII era b-w pics do not answer my question of course. I know also that my question is theoretical because the USAAF Captains and Majors wearing EM trousers belts can be seen as well (due to lack of Officer's belts?). None the less I would like to know what was general rule and regulation -- for what range of military ranks were silver USAAC/USAAF buckles and for what range of military ranks were golden ones? Could you explain it? I would be very thankful.

 

What I need to know at detailed level is an information what trousers belts, with what buckles (open EM, Officer's silver or golden) ought to have WWII era three the following USAAF pilots:

● Warrant Officer Junior Grade

● Chief Warrant Officer

● Flight Officer

 

And one more question -- what buckles ought to have USAAF pilots:

● 2nd Lt.

● 1st Lt.

● Captain

 

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Best regards

 

Greg

[sgtbrown]

Gregory,

 

Just off the top of my head, I think you are going to find "the sky is the limit". To my knowledge, there was no regulation, per sae, as to what rank wore what buckle. Fact is, the only "issue" belt buckle was the open enlisted version. Officers' uniforms were private purchase and the only regulation you might find would be that officers wear the "slide friction" buckle rather than the open enlisted buckle. Beyond that??????

 

Keep in mind the log of my being wrong is 2" thick and I am on Volume #4!

 

Tom

[Wailuna]

Here's what the Army regulation entitled Prescribed Service Uniform had to say about the trouser belt and buckle at various intervals during WWII:

 

AR 600-35 edition of November 10, 1941, paragraph 6, page 3: "Belt, waist. -- A 1 1/4-inch olive drab web belt equipped with tongueless strap buckle."

 

AR 600-35 edition of March 31, 1944, paragraph 6, paragraph 6, page 3: "Belt, waist. -- A 1 1/4-inch olive drab web belt equipped with an adopted buckle."

 

These descriptions of buckles are pretty terse. Note, however, that there is no distinction in the uniform regulation between officer and enlisted trouser belt buckles, nor is there any distinction among various ranks or duties of officers, nor between the Army ground and air forces as to "silver" or "gold" colored buckles.

 

Belt buckles were a commodity, mass produced as inexpensively as possible to Quartermaster General specifications for issue to enlisted men and for sale to officers (for close to cost). There was no official intention or need to decorate belt buckles with insignia of any kind. In fact, the "open faced" buckle was a deliberate instance of anti-decorative design in which appearance did not matter.

 

Yes, we have seen "fancy" buckles made with ultra shiny silver plating and/or with every sort of insignia attached. All unauthorized. Purchased in Army & Navy stores for off-duty wear (or even on-duty where tolerated.) There were no "rules" for these buckles.

[Wailuna]

...I am not sure what color is ranked higher in your armed forces heraldry -- silver or golden -- if 2nd Lt. bar is golden but 1st Lt. is silver? Looks like silver color is more important but maybe I am wrong...

Sorry to neglect earlier to address your silver vs. gold question as to U.S. officer rank insignia (it was dinner time here and I had to eat, or else...)

 

In any event, here is a live link to the answer from the Army Institute of Heraldry : USE OF SILVER AND GOLD OFFICER INSIGNIA OF RANK.

 

As you see there is a long history behind this bit of trivia but now you know the reason why silver outranks gold in this instance. I wouldn't try to sell this notion to a bullion trader, however.

[Gregory]

Friends,

 

Thank you very much. I know -- my post might look like a race for The Holly Grail or "eBay manner of thinking" but unfortunately I had nothing good of period documents to check this subject. I tried to find something about it in 1942 edition of The Officer's Guide but without good result.

 

I would say that on the eBay there is a pressure to think that open buckle is for enlisted men only and slide friction type one for the officers only. That is why I wanted to make sure what is historic correctness and wartime practice because these two factors are important in that case. I know even the picture where P-38 pilot of PTO wears a buckle with miniaturized officer's cap badge if I see correctly.

 

Well, am I to understand that commercial market designed the buckles with the USAAC/USAAF branch insignia without Army's permission for it and traded those buckles at all theatres of operations? Do I understand correctly that silver or gold coats on the slide friction buckles were for anti-corrosion protection only?

 

I am also grateful for text on heraldic silver over gold precedence I looked for. This is very interesting case study but also wise and practical. Sometimes armed forces of the world think very good to avoid uniform revolution if it is not really needed.

 

Could you write also when the US armed forces began to oxidize or parkerize black open buckles for the trousers belts? And the last question -- when transition green or OD#7 trousers belts entered service? Was it the same period as entire darker US webbing around 1943?

 

Thank you very much for your valuable information.

 

Best regards

 

Greg

[Wailuna]

....open buckle is for enlisted men only and slide friction type one for the officers only....

No. Approved QMG trouser belt buckles were interchangeable among officer and enlisted ranks.

 

.....am I to understand that commercial market designed the buckles with the USAAC/USAAF branch insignia without Army's permission...?

Correct. Army trouser belt buckles you see with insignia affixed are of commercial origin and not "approved" (but often tolerated by unit authorities for optional wear).

 

....Do I understand correctly that silver or gold coats on the slide friction buckles were for anti-corrosion protection only?

Basically, yes. Approved QMG trouser belt buckles in WWII that were "gold" (yellow) colored were the result of brass plating over base metal, with the addition of a clear lacquer coating to prevent corrosion (which technique did not perform very well). All QM issued brass plated insignia tarnished almost immediately upon wearing and required constant polishing. Mirror finished commercial buckles, whether "gold" or "silver" colored, were marketed with the expressed or implied promise of overcoming the curse of corrosion. This was all B.S. of course.

 

While on the subject of the trouser belt, you might like to know that wearing the belt was not mandatory if the belt was not visible (such as when a coat was being worn) and that wearing suspenders was permitted when the suspenders were not visible (such as when a coat was being worn). Presumably these suspenders were of commercial design, as there was no approved QMG pattern for this application.

[craig_pickrall]

I do not recall ever seeing a silver buckle before the USAF became a separate branch of service in 1947. Maybe someone can correct me on this.

 

I did the attached photo spread about 4 years ago. At the time I had a broken arm so had some help with the layout and labels. This could be improved on a good deal but at the least it will give you some pics for discussion.

 

[craig_pickrall]

[craig_pickrall]

USAF

 

[craig_pickrall]

USMC

 

[Wailuna]

I do not recall ever seeing a silver buckle before the USAF became a separate branch of service in 1947. Maybe someone can correct me on this.

Nice belt and buckle display, craig. This pretty well covers Greg's questions.

 

As to "silver" (or "white") colored Army buckles, I believe you do have a sample of one at position E-5 in post #8 (with the Medical DI affixed). At least, that is the color I took to be the basis for Greg's question regarding "silver" Army buckles.

 

Buckles this color were in vogue when I was a young soldier (after Korea and before Vietnam). Collar and service hat insignia came in this material as well. The Army was just then transitioning from OD to Army Green and all those shiny brass buttons and gold braid on the new AG uniform cried out for enhancement. Anodized "white-gold" insignia and buttons for the coat and hat were available and commonly seen (mostly worn by officers, who could afford the cost). These anodized fixtures were authorized for optional wear and were sold at the P.X., but they could not be mixed with ordinary brass insignia on the same uniform. From looking at contemporary uniform regulations (AR 670-1 ed. Feb 2005), I see that "...previously optional white gold anodized aluminum buttons are no longer authorized for wear...." (p.156).

[Gregory]

Friends,

 

Thank you very much, am really very grateful for all your comments, pics show, information. Below you may see why I needed this informational support. Both buckles I posted below I bought as "WWII era". And theoretically it is OK, becuase at least since 1942 I can see the US pilots wearing such buckles. The only one problem is in b-w photography and in doubts "what is what" and if WWII in fact.

 

At the last picture you may also see why I asked for info when the US armed forces initiated oxidizing or parkerizing black the buckles. The pilot at the pic was taken in May 1942 and his buckle looks like never blackened but polished.

 

One more time thank you very much for all you did!

 

Best regards

 

Greg

[Wailuna]

Thanks for starting a very interesting topic, Greg. It looks like you found the information you needed and the rest of us received an informative elaboration of the subject.

 

Just one final comment on your flyer's shiny open-face belt buckle (which looks like the Army 1941 pattern): Regardless of time or place, if an object in the Army could be polished to a bright shine, someone would do it, regardless of the Army's intention that the object not shine.

[craig_pickrall]

Look at post number 7 to see those open face buckles in both brass and non-shiny metal. The pre-war or early war buckles were made of brass and could be shined but later they were made from a grey metal that has no shine to it.

 

Gregory do you have a date on your 2 buckles with the wing and prop? If I had to guess I would say they are post 1947 after the USAF became a separate branch but have nothing to base this on.

[Gregory]

Gregory do you have a date on your 2 buckles with the wing and prop?

No, they are unmarked and undated.

 

If I had to guess I would say they are post 1947 after the USAF became a separate branch but have nothing to base this on.

That is this problem I came to this topic. No doubt such buckles existed during WWII but how to recognize WWII era ones from post WWII specimens? And maybe they are the same because there are only five years between the USAAF and USAF?

 

Below there are two pics of 1942 where P-38 pilots had the buckles we are talking about.

[craig_pickrall]

Gregory, I do not collect USAAF / USAF items so probably should not be discussing this but I am curious about these buckles. The reason I think they are post war is that during WW2 the AAF officer insignia was a gold wing with silver prop and usually these belt buckles have the standard branch insignia on them. There are some that have the insignia stamped into the brass buckle but that is not the case with yours. After the USAF became a separate branch and had their uniform specs established they no longer wore the winged prop insignia. I can see at that point why the buckle makers would use single type material rather than 2 color. Hopefully a AF collector that knows about these buckles will sign in and set us straight.

[Gregory]

Craig,

 

You did your best and I am very greteful for all your and other colleagues' efforts to explain as much as possible in the field of period buckles I was interested in. Maybe some day USAAF collector will add something to it, maybe not, doesn't matter. At present my knowledge about it is much greater than a week ago and this is only thanks to you all.

 

Thank you very much!

 

Greg

[Gregory]

when transition green or OD#7 trousers belts entered service? Was it the same period as entire darker US webbing around 1943?

I asked -- I answer.

 

I found the USN pic published in February 1944 which means that it might be taken late 1943 or early 1944. The sailor has dark shade belt -- see below. Does anybody know dark shade trousers belts earlier than in 1943?

[Gregory]

Hello,

 

Since last post of February 16th, 2008 I collected three nice USAAF trouser belts with branch logos. Below there is one more photograph showing such a belt -- the image comes from the Air Progress, Vol. 2 No. 2, April 1943.

 

I would have one more technical question: When the US Army changed width standard for trouser belts from earlier 1 6/16in to 1 ¼in? I guess this change was done late 1930s or very early 1940s but I would be thankful for narrowing this period.

 

Best regards

 

Gregory

[Sabrejet]

I have several of these USAAF buckles, also US Army and USN. I'll photograph and post them...when I find them! From memory, one of the USAAF has a two-colour winged-prop applied, others are stamped in relief.

 

Sabrejet

[Gregory]

I'll photograph and post them...when I find them!

I would be very thankful! :thumbsup:

[SergeantPete]

Reviving an old post in the hopes this forum is still active.

 

Ive purchased this wing and prop buckle as an original WWII piece but wondering why the wings look different than the pictures above. Specifically the wings feathers are more detailed and not contoured the same as all other references. Could mine be a different manufacture, a repro, or a one off? Appreciate any feedback.

[patches]

Reviving an old post in the hopes this forum is still active.

 

Ive purchased this wing and prop buckle as an original WWII piece but wondering why the wings look different than the pictures above. Specifically the wings feathers are more detailed and not contoured the same as all other references. Could mine be a different manufacture, a repro, or a one off? Appreciate any feedback.

A photo of said buckle front and back will be of help, after looking buckle it could be a maker variation, still we love to see it in any event

[MattS]

There were many slight variations in the AAC/AAF wing-and-prop design. The modern version of Army Aviation branch insignia tends to have "pointy" wingtips as opposed to the rounded ones of WW2.

[wuzcav]

Can someone give an approximate date for the buckle shown in the late Craig Pickrall’s 31 Dec 07 post. Photo #1 Buckle 3E or 5E with a back like photo #2 3C.

How was it worn on the belt? I wore and am familiar  with the slide type rod in the center. 

I have a 3E/5E type with ordnance branch screwback insignia and a 3E/5E 11th Cav no hallmark screwback 11A4 type di.