Jump to content

WW1 Dallas Pilot Wings: Real or Fake?


FieryPhantom
 Share

Recommended Posts

Great thread guys, BTY the company that made the almost impossible to distinguish Dallas wings was the "House of Swords". He apparently made LOT of incredibly well made fakes of all types, lot of Nazi crap, and WWI wings. I believe he was murdered in the early 80's. Apparently a family member has been selling his old stock on eBay through an intermediary. Including these "Pasquali " marked Airship wings:

post-182-1199571452.jpg

A set of these turned up in a 30 year old collection, and then I bought these on eBay a few years ago. I have held 3 of these, and each one had a different pin. A collector who had access to a spectrometer (?) have a set analyzed and apparently the silver was of a type used in the 40s!! Scary!

A little off topic but good info to have,

 

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember when he was murdered. The rumour was he was killed by some German collectors because of his near perfect helmet decals but who knows. He did make some excellent Dallas Wing reproductions. They were done in very small lots of around 15-20 and done by a jeweller, Patrick I believe the wing you found in the flea market to be one of those wings, his first couple of runs had the metal shield too close to the wing sections, (some nearly overlapped if memory serves) and then he found a better constructor who was rumored to live in Salt Lake City(it's amazing how many rumors surrounded this guy!) and that's when the wings became really, really good. They were sold on Manions for years and one faker in particular bought a whole years production at one time and has been feeding them out slowly over the years.

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great thread guys, BTY the company that made the almost impossible to distinguish Dallas wings was the "House of Swords". He apparently made LOT of incredibly well made fakes of all types, lot of Nazi crap, and WWI wings. I believe he was murdered in the early 80's. Apparently a family member has been selling his old stock on eBay through an intermediary. Including these "Pasquali " marked Airship wings:

post-182-1199571452.jpg

A set of these turned up in a 30 year old collection, and then I bought these on eBay a few years ago. I have held 3 of these, and each one had a different pin. A collector who had access to a spectrometer (?) have a set analyzed and apparently the silver was of a type used in the 40s!! Scary!

A little off topic but good info to have,

 

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Here is a recent set of wings I acquired:

 

 

Chris

 

Chris

 

I love the hand chased detail in this wing thumbsup.gif

 

Kurt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kurt,

 

Thanks! I am currently on vacation (leave) at my Parents house in FL and these were at a gun show in Lakeland. They leave me in a quandary. They appear to be 800 silver, although they are marked "sterling", and have toned to a pleasing grey-blue hue as you see in the picture. So here is my thinking; I normally like to lightly polish my wings since sterling tarnishes to that ugly black. But being 800 or coin silver these have "toned" instead. Campbell, in his book, stated that these were European made, and European silver content was slightly different from American. I think I will leave these as-is for now.

 

On a side note, these must have cost a pretty penny back in the day as the workmanship on them is exquisite. Even the spinners are gold plated.

 

Chris

 

Chris

 

I love the hand chased detail in this wing thumbsup.gif

 

Kurt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't collect WW1 flight wings but a number of years ago an insignia dealer in Northern California showed me one of these wings that he had gotten in an estate sale along with a photograph of the pilot wearing the wing. I forgot what the asking price was or the name of the pilot but I did take the attached photographs for reference.

post-1389-1201213330.jpg

post-1389-1201213339.jpg

post-1389-1201213350.jpg

post-1389-1201213362.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That appears to be a great little group, and the wings appear to be good ones. But, as is always the case with these "Dallas" type wings, the fakes are so good, that you almost have to hold them in your hands and compare them to known good ones to be absolutely sure.

 

Thanks for sharing it!

 

Chris

 

 

I don't collect WW1 flight wings but a number of years ago an insignia dealer in Northern California showed me one of these wings that he had gotten in an estate sale along with a photograph of the pilot wearing the wing. I forgot what the asking price was or the name of the pilot but I did take the attached photographs for reference.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is an excellent set of wings. Note how the wool backing has changed color through the years, textbook.

 

 

Gary

I don't collect WW1 flight wings but a number of years ago an insignia dealer in Northern California showed me one of these wings that he had gotten in an estate sale along with a photograph of the pilot wearing the wing. I forgot what the asking price was or the name of the pilot but I did take the attached photographs for reference.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Chris,

 

By all means I would leave them alone. 800 fine silver is a European standard and means the metal is 80% silver (800 parts of 1000) so would not rate STERLING classification in the UK or here in the States. All that aside though they are indeed a beautiful set of wings!

 

 

Gary

Kurt,

 

Thanks! I am currently on vacation (leave) at my Parents house in FL and these were at a gun show in Lakeland. They leave me in a quandary. They appear to be 800 silver, although they are marked "sterling", and have toned to a pleasing grey-blue hue as you see in the picture. So here is my thinking; I normally like to lightly polish my wings since sterling tarnishes to that ugly black. But being 800 or coin silver these have "toned" instead. Campbell, in his book, stated that these were European made, and European silver content was slightly different from American. I think I will leave these as-is for now.

 

On a side note, these must have cost a pretty penny back in the day as the workmanship on them is exquisite. Even the spinners are gold plated.

 

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gary,

 

Thank you for your kind words. I too think they look nice as is.

 

Chris

 

 

Hi Chris,

 

By all means I would leave them alone. 800 fine silver is a European standard and means the metal is 80% silver (800 parts of 1000) so would not rate STERLING classification in the UK or here in the States. All that aside though they are indeed a beautiful set of wings!

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
John Cooper

This thread came up in a discussion with a fellow collector and it is so interesting and informative I thought I will bump it back to the top.

 

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Demented more like guvna!

Holy crap am I glad I only collect WWII wings direct from their estates! You guys are....devoted?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a recent set of wings I acquired:

 

post-594-1200879806.jpg

 

Chris

 

Kurt,

 

Thanks! I am currently on vacation (leave) at my Parents house in FL and these were at a gun show in Lakeland. They leave me in a quandary. They appear to be 800 silver, although they are marked "sterling", and have toned to a pleasing grey-blue hue as you see in the picture. So here is my thinking; I normally like to lightly polish my wings since sterling tarnishes to that ugly black. But being 800 or coin silver these have "toned" instead. Campbell, in his book, stated that these were European made, and European silver content was slightly different from American. I think I will leave these as-is for now.

 

On a side note, these must have cost a pretty penny back in the day as the workmanship on them is exquisite. Even the spinners are gold plated.

 

Chris

Chris,

 

Unless tested, be reluctant to assume this badge is made of anything less than sterling. Sterling silver contains a minimum of 92.5% pure silver and 7.5% other metals, usually copper which would easily account for the pleasing grey-blue hue of your badge.

 

One more thing. Duncan Campbell wrote the original draft for his book back in 1972 and the assumption then was that these badges may have been made in Europe; however, a lot of water has gone over the dam sense 1972. Sometime in the mid to late 1990s, Duncan realized that every biographical example of this badge that he had been shown since 1972, there were several, was attributed to an RMA who never got overseas. :think: It was then that he became convinced they had actually been made in the USA; however, shortly before having said that, Terry Morris' book was published which referred to Duncan's original belief in 1972. That only added to the myth :pinch: that these badges were made in Europe.

 

Congratulations Chris, it is a beautiful badge. :thumbsup:

 

Cliff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Phillip,

Some very good comments and advice have been given by members of the forum. I would like to make a couple observations that may help you in your quest for the early wings. A pair of sterling wings with gold US cost $3.00 in 1918. The gold US at that time only cost a couple pennies. I have noticed that a number of WW1 wings showing up on the market have a plated US or brass US. To my knowledge no original WW1 wing was made with a plated or brass US. Gold was just to inexpensive at the time and easier to work with. The "Dallas" wings had very close small stitching on the back and the center portion between the catch and pin had a leather strip covering the threads. I have seen the leather with both a cross design and pebbled finish. These were glued on so on the original wings you may find traces of the glue if the leather is missing. Look for small beads of silver in the feathering on the wings. this is a direct give away of a cast wing. If you apply all the advice that has been given by the very knowledgable members of this forum you should be in a better position to make a determination as to fake or original. However the best way is to handle the originals so you can see how they were constructed and finished. Good luck in your collecting endeavers.

 

Sincerly, Terry R. Morris (Maj Ret)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 12 years later...

Hey guys,

 

I am new to this forum and have read through the last topic on Dallas Wings being real or fake. I acquired a pair of wings a couple months ago advertised as an estate find. After reading through this forum I have a hunch they are reproduction but would like an opinion from someone who has a better trained eye than myself. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

A Lamont

IMG_2388.JPG

IMG_2389.JPG

IMG_2390.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Alamont, I am not a fan of these. Beads don’t extend past end of wing tips, beads not well formed, no saw cuts between wings, thread used  on back too thick, etc. The US while proportional also looks off to me. Sorry, fake in my opinion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/20/2008 at 7:44 PM, cwnorma said:

Here is a recent set of wings I acquired:

 

 

post-594-1200879806.jpg

 

 

 

Chris

Any idea of the maker? Those extra big stars look unique!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A Lamont - are the letters applied to the wing with visible gaps under them and very crisp edges to the vertical stripes?  If not, I would suspect it being a repro.

 

Blind Pew - I believe your wing was made by Simmang.  I have a similar wing that Chris indicated was a Simmang.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, 5thwingmarty said:

A Lamont - are the letters applied to the wing with visible gaps under them and very crisp edges to the vertical stripes?  If not, I would suspect it being a repro.

 

Blind Pew - I believe your wing was made by Simmang.  I have a similar wing that Chris indicated was a Simmang.

Thanks! Simmang? Never knew they were a maker- thanks for the information. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris was working on an article about Charles Simmang but I don't know if it has been published yet.  Simmang was a jeweler and craftsman in San Antonio and I don't know of any Simmang RMA badges that have actual makers hallmarks, but I have this license plate topper from Simmang.  I have seen a couple of these license plate toppers and they were all marked very crudely on the back like this one.

 

RIMG1555.JPG

RIMG1556.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, 5thwingmarty said:

Chris was working on an article about Charles Simmang but I don't know if it has been published yet.  Simmang was a jeweler and craftsman in San Antonio and I don't know of any Simmang RMA badges that have actual makers hallmarks, but I have this license plate topper from Simmang.  I have seen a couple of these license plate toppers and they were all marked very crudely on the back like this one.

 

RIMG1555.JPG

RIMG1556.JPG

Thanks!

 

Did a little reading about the jeweler (in TX, of course), but couldn't find hardly any info or images of the wings anywhere. Must be one of the low volume sources of wings that put out a very interesting type of wing, but just not many. 

 

Perhaps there are other members here who have more examples of such wings who might post them over time. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/7/2022 at 9:06 AM, 5thwingmarty said:

A Lamont - are the letters applied to the wing with visible gaps under them and very crisp edges to the vertical stripes?  If not, I would suspect it being a repro.

 

Blind Pew - I believe your wing was made by Simmang.  I have a similar wing that Chris indicated was a Simmang.

There are some visible gaps under the letters, however they are very tight. There is a dent above the left part of the "U" if the is any indicator of the a strike? The vertical stripes I wouldn't really call crisp. The wings don't have even spacing from the shield either. Seems like the real ones were made better than that. I had a hunch these were repro but was told they came from an estate of a collector named Stanley Blake. Thanks for all the expertise, I really appreciate it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

Tod's @rathbonemuseum.com work behind the scenes to straighten up the wings forum of late has been bringing some of these great old threads back to the front.  Its always a bit strange to see things you wrote over a decade prior come back!

 

Anyway, thanks to Tod for all the hard work.  There is a lot of content here and getting it all sorted is nothing short of Herculean!  Thanks Tod!

 

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...