WWII Luger Capture Paperwork

[JohnnieDavis]

Morning all, a Luger I got a while back has some paperwork that just resurfaced. I wanted to share it with you all, hoping to get a little background on the unit the 'captor' was with, anything at all. The 1st Lt. didn't have the neatest handwriting but at least the unit is readable.

Thanks in advance for the replies!

JD

[Sgt. Boghots]

Hello JD,

 

I love those capture papers, of all sorts !

 

And am I understanding it correctly that this is for the pistol you have ? -

 

I don't have a unit history for the 599th AAA, but here is a link that may have something of interstet to you:

 

http://genforum.genealogy.com/wwii/messages/20111.html

 

Good Luck in your research !

 

Best regards,

Paul

[Jack's Son]

JD,

You have the Luger as well.....mat we see it as well?

[Bob Hudson]

Paste this into Google and you'll find plenty of reference:

 

"599th" "Anti-Aircraft Artillery"

[zepher11]

I just ran accross your certificate for the Luger capture paperwork. I have one as well. This is from a relative that was in the 101st AB 377th PFAB:

I posted this before, but here is a April '45 photo of the certificate holder with the luger. He mentions that the "holster is the Luger" on the back of the photo. I am now the proud caretaker of the Luger, certificate and holster (US Boyt 1943):

Here's the holster:

I'd post a picture of the Luger as well, but I am certain it is "verboten." Anyway, it was neat to see your certificate. I missed seeing it earlier. I thought you might like to see another like certificate. Thanks for posting your copy!

Zeph

[NickCT]

Wow, that's great that you have a pic of it as well as the actual gun. Very cool.

I recently picked up a lot of letters and papers tied to a WWII Marine, and this was included, a form giving him permission to ship a Japanese Type 99 rifle back to the States:

[Johan Willaert]

They even had Customs Declarations for these captured Lugers...

[dpast32]

Hello Guy's,

 

I guess I'm a bit late with my reply here, but you know what "they" say, Better Late Than Never ! NOTHING get's me more excited than a nice condition "G.I. bring back" weapon, accompanied by the original documents !! I used to pick them up all the time, but it appears as if the available supply has all but dried up. Many legit items have ended up in various collections, while other pieces have been retained by the relatives of their prior owners. From what I've been able to discern, the U.S. Military issued / used 2 specific issue forms to authorize a G.I. to retain a item of "captured enemy ordnance", & / or to mail home the same. An overwhelming percentage of the documents have been found to be dated during mid to late 1945, which corresponds exactly when the bulk of U.S. troops were shipped home, beginning circa the end of hostilities, in early May 1945. The forms were oftern filled out rather quickly, by some junior Officer who had been detailed to perform such duty by one of his superiors. I've seen photos of some poor Lieut., sitting at a card table, waiting to process a very long line of soon to be discharged G.I.'s, all who had 1 or 2 "war trophies" they wished to take home with them. That's why some capture papers will be found to be filled out very neatly, & will include all of the G.I.'s relevant information. Then, you will find some paperwork that's just about legible, scribbled onto the form(s) in such a hurried manner, that often the Soldier's service # & other relevant data wasn't included. I guess at the time, the men involved weren't concern with precise documentation, & about a bunch of collector's some 50+ years down the road. Don't forget, that was way back in 1945 or so, & many folks felt differently about firearms than they do today. U.S. troops were notorious war trophy hunters, & all most all G.I.'s returned home with something as a keepsake. When I first began collecting "documented bring-backs", I initially surmised that the paperwork would state, who, when, where & how the G.I. managed to capture the weapon ( or item ) ? Boy, was I wrong. I later learned that the papers were only intended to allow the G.I. to officially retain or mail home the item. During WW2, captured enemy pistols became almost a form of currency to the troops, & were sold & swapped amongst each other, as payment during card or dice games, etc. Years ago, whenever I obtained a new "War trophy", I would try to contact it's original owner if at all possible, & interview him regarding the item & his related military service. ( In fact, I was seriosly considering a book, detailing each captured weapon in my collection. ) Even though U.S. troops were encourged to fill out the proper paperwork to retain their souvinier items, MANY did not follow that advice, especially with pistols, but sometimes with rifles too. Many guy's chose to just keep their trophy pistols on thier persons, & hope not to get caught. Some G.I.'s liked the feeling of having a small pistol on their person, just as a last ditch or "hideout" gun. Sometimes you will find a WW1 or WW2 era rifle that the stock has been cut off, usually under it's 2nd barrel band. That's what collector's refer to as a "duffle bag cut". ( or just a "duffle cut" ) It was done to facilitate the rifle's fitting inside a standard issue G.I. duffle bag, so it could be transported home that way by the Soldier. A good percentage of the German, Japanes & assorted European mfg military pistols were initially G.I.'s "bring back" pieces. Over the years since the 2 world wars, a great many of these particular guns have lost their identity as "G.I. capture pieces", due to their being sold, or otherwise parted with by the Veteran or his family. Many times the person who ended up getting rid of the item didn't realize there was any paperwork associated with it. Thereby forever severing that important link as a bonafide war trophy. Collectors should always remember to ask if there's any paperwork associated with the item when purchasing a piece of militaria. Just as a quick lesson, I'll briefly descibe how I almost missed a really nice & legit bring back piece. I had benn "looking" at a small European 6.35mm pistol on a local dealer's shelf for 2 or 3 years. Nobody ever showed any interest in it, so I decided to make the guy an offer. I had already checked the gun out over a year before, & it was a 1944 mfg'd Czech DUO pistol, complete with it's original paper laminate flap holster. When I first looked at the holster, I neglected to look way up under the flap's inside. As I took "one more" look at it prior to tendering an offer, I noticed that there was a name & U.S. Officer's service # stamped in ink / stencil under the flap. Rather than go into a long story, suffice to say that it proved to be an interesting little pistol !! The G.I. Captain who "captured" it turned out to be the Battalion Surgeon of a US Combat Engineer unit. He verified to me that he obtained the pistol from a German paratrooper who was brought into his Bn Aid Station, circa March 1945. The guy had been shot up pretty good, & as they cut off the German's para smock, the little holstered .25 dropped out onto the Capt.'s foot !!! He said he placed the rig in his pocket & it rode with him throught the war & on to home. He said he finally sold it to the shop where I found it, due to his grandchildren getting older& he became worried they might find it in the house. Soooooooooooo, as you can tell, I really love "capture pieces". I have a few other's, & if anyone's interested I'll try to post their details here on the USMF. So guys, be sure to cherish your officially documented militaria, it's becoming more & more difficult to find these days.

 

Regards, dpast32

[zepher11]

I recently picked up a lot of letters and papers tied to a WWII Marine, and this was included, a form giving him permission to ship a Japanese Type 99 rifle back to the States:

That's pretty cool. I haven't seen a PTO certificate. Very nice item!

 

They even had Customs Declarations for these captured Lugers...

I haven't see a Customs Declaration either. These Customs Declaration must have only been on items shipped mailed/shipped home. I would suspect that they are much more rare than the certificates.

 

Thanks for posting. I love to see these items!

 

Zeph

[zepher11]

So guys, be sure to cherish your officially documented militaria, it's becoming more & more difficult to find these days.

Great information Dom. I actually have the duplicate of the same certificate as well. I think they were both hand written...I will have to check. My bring back has a very chilling story behind how it was obtianed by Bill during the Battle of the Bulge. I posted it here somewhere before. I have to run, or I would look up the information and post the story now. If I remember later, I will see if I can find the link to his story and post it here if anyone is interested....

 

Zeph

[dpast32]

Great information Dom. I actually have the duplicate of the same certificate as well. I think they were both hand written...I will have to check. My bring back has a very chilling story behind how it was obtianed by Bill during the Battle of the Bulge. I posted it here somewhere before. I have to run, or I would look up the information and post the story now. If I remember later, I will see if I can find the link to his story and post it here if anyone is interested....

 

Zeph

 

No, the Customs forms didn't always indicate an item was being mailed home. Sometimes the Customs Declaration form were present with items hand carried home by G.I.'s. I have an FN Model 1922 ( 7.65 mm ) that came with BOTH forms. The Customs form stipulates that the item "will be carried home in duffle bag". This pistol too has an interesting story, as it was obtained in Au, Austria during the Summer of 1945 by a 733rd FA Bn Sgt. The G.I. had been delivering some routine paperwork to a hospital, and while he was there he stopped in, as he was friendly with some of the U.S. Medics on duty there. He said that the place was in commotion that morning, as a German Luftwaffe guy had just shot himself in the head. One of the Medic's he knew offered him the German's pistol, which he quickly placed in his pocket & headed back to camp. He went on to register it as a war trophy & bring in to back with him a few months later. I found it for sale in a gunshop, & later tracked the guy down. After he told me how he came across it, I asked him why he sold it after all these years ? He said for beer money ? Oh well, it's in good hands now.

 

Dom

[zepher11]

That is good to know about the Custom Declaration tags, Dom. I like to keep my eyes peeled for WWII items and I haven't seen those before, and I like your story about the GI getting the Luger in the hospital. Here is the Link to the Story that I mentioned previously, if anyone is interested.

 

Zeph

[Johan Willaert]

The Customs Declaration I posted above is attached to a duffel bag carried home by a GI of the 121st Combat Engineers of the 29ID...

[SFMike]

I began collecting late 50s when most all relics came from local vets or my own family.

 

Authorization papers were very much the exception rather than the norm.

 

Most all souvenier weapons and other stuff was picked from piles of surrendered gear at collection points.

Lots of new unissued stuff was picked from factories or depots.

Much was trade goods or purchased from other GIs.

 

REMFs seemed to have the most stuff.

In VN I quickly learned I wanted nothing from a fresh dead man's hands or body.

They look right at you while you rob them.

Guys who never saw that were eager for trophies.

 

I have a Mauser my dad, 506th PIR brought home. It actually had paperwork which was lost.

The frazzled Lt detailed for the day wrote the mismatched mag number instead of the actual number.

 

"Capture papers" are commonly faked and I would not pay .50 for an original.

They contain nothing of interest to me.

[zepher11]

"Capture papers" are commonly faked and I would not pay .50 for an original.

They contain nothing of interest to me.

I don't think I would be in the market for "Capture papers" per se, but it is neat to see authentic originals for those of us that haven't seen too many examples. However, if I were to encounter a WWII "bring back", I might better be able to ascertain it's originality with the knowledge I have gained here from reviewing originals. Well, at least I would like to think I could. Anyway, sounds like you have had some good examples over the years. :thumbsup:

 

Regards, Zeph